C&O Allengenhy #1601

As you well know, C&O #1601 is the last or close to the last preserved Allengheny in the United States. She is currently sitting inside the Henry Ford Museum, In Dearborn Michigan. I had a thought of possibily getting together a group and getting her out on excursions. is it possibile?? Any C&O Engineer help would be appreciated.

From talking to people who have been on that engine there is no reason why it would not be a very good candidate to run. The engine has been inside since she was retired and in a temperature and humidity controlled environment to boot. The biggest concern is the question of where to run her and how to pay for it. As anyone affiliated with steam will tell you there is no easy solution to this. Look at the Frisco 1522. The monetary problem killed her faster than the trackage problem. She was a relatively light locomotive that could go a lot of places that the 1601 can't. 1601 is a locomotive that weighs more than the UP 3785 and she can't go everywhere on UP's trackage due to weight and clearance restrictions. If you can solve these 2 issues then there is no reason she can't be run. I would be surprised if nothing more than a light overhaul and a new set of flues is required (knock on wood). She is by far one of the best large candidates to get a restoration. And if you need parts the B&O Museum has a sister to her, I am willing to bet they would help some. (1604) But money and trackage will be the biggest problems to getting back on the rails. Be nice to find out how fast she can go as there are only guesses at it, since she was run as a drag coal and freight engine.

Methinks the Henry Ford museum might have some issues with the 1601 hitting the road.

Though well preserved, the 1601 is very much a ship in a bottle. I got the impressions during conversations I had with the musem's media relations person that the 1601 is something of a star attraction.

I'd like to see the 1604 restored ... to bring two H8 into good, if cosmetic, repair. Given the large group of equipment in Baltimore, the B&O museum might be more receptive to parting their H8 than the folks in Dearborn. Additionally, the 1604 is on (or near) live rail.

If I were to restore the 1604, I'd form a corporate parnership with a mechanical engineering firm. I'd look to find places where material (eg weight) could be removed (or replaced with lighter materials) without significant penalties to structual integrity or adhesion. Given the advances in computer design, it should be possible to redesign and rebuild an H8 to operate anywhere UP 3985's weight and axle loads permit.

If one wants a go-anwhere engine, may I suggest a Van Swerigen (sp.) 2-8-4 (ex: NKP 765, NKP 759).

* JB *
Agent at Clicquot

Sayeth Agent at Clicquot:

"If I were to restore the 1604, I'd form a corporate parnership with a mechanical engineering firm. I'd look to find places where material (eg weight) could be removed (or replaced with lighter materials) without significant penalties to structual integrity or adhesion. Given the advances in computer design, it should be possible to redesign and rebuild an H8 to operate anywhere UP 3985's weight and axle loads permit."

Sorry, Agent. The first ten Alleghenies weighed 778,000 pounds, with an average driver axle loading of 80,000 pounds. The engine weight was 6,000 pounds more than the Big Boy 4-8-8-4. It would not be possible, even using the most modern computer design methods and technology, to remove 150,000 (+ or -) pounds of engine weight from the 2-6-6-6 to make it the same weight as the 3985.

Oh, I guess it could be done; you could thin down the boiler plates and steam it at maybe 150 PSI instead of 260; you could shave weight off the cast bed frames because you wouldn't be transmitting as much power; you could cut weight off the main and side rods, and thus driver counterbalances, for the same reason. But then you'd have a caricature of an Allegheny - nothing like the real thing.

The 1601 and 1604 are where they belong, and where they'll stay. I doubt if any railroad would subject itself to the weight and axle loadings of these monsters.

But dream on . . .

ek2179

Engineer James...I know that this probably never happen,unless I won the lotto...LOL...however it sure is nice to be able to dream about it though! Who knows what the future might bring...who would have ever thought we would have coal trains and empty hopper trains being powered by steam on a Class 1 carrier in 1985...remember the 614T!!! Anything is possible given the right circumstances! Hope brother...hope!

Dave

So, #1601, is a star attraction to the Henry Ford, What about the Mike they have behind it or is that another class, it looks in pretty nice condition, any info?

Any way #1604, would be nice to rebuild. Is there current groups who want to do it???

I was at the Henry Ford Museum last Sunday and saw the 1601 and was surprised that she ran under her own steam to Ford's Rouge Yard were the fire was dropped for the last time. This engine should be in fine shape to run again. The museum might not want to give this up because it is the most photographed exibit in the museum. I would like to see this engine run again!

1601's last run was in 1955 Engineer Dutch Sullivan and Fireman E.E. Rogers outta C&O's Handley Yard. They ran her down to Quinnimont yard on the New River Sub on the way back E.E. kept the stoker going and filled the fire box with so much coal it got all the way up into the combustion chamber once it got back to handley they couldnt get the coal out so they shoved her on a siding above the roundhouse which she sat there with trees growing up through the tender till 1956 when C&O gave her to the Ford Mus. Friend of mine Carl Lake rode her dead from Handley to Huntington shops where they rebuilt her to running status and under her own power to MI.

This is second hand information but it's from a good source. Someone who rebuilds steam for a living ( one of the best in the US ) and looked over that engine, (needed parts for C&/O 614 in 1996). As I recall the C&O was going to donate the 1640 something to the musem, that engine was in such good shape they entered it back into service when they fell short on power in the mid 50's. So they had the 1601 sitting around it got patched up and sent it in place of the 40 something. The engine is tired and had the crap beat out of it the last year or so, running gear, boiler and all. I could be WRONG but it was one off the two and I think it was the 1601.
If one wants to rebuilt a engine of that size there is CLEARLY only one good choice for a engine when one looks at the dollors and cents N&W1218! The engine is allready approx 50% rebuilt, I was told $400.000.00 would get it on the road. Any of the others in a musem would be 1 to 2 million for sure.

Take care

#1601?? Umm, as far as I know, I e-mailed Henry Ford, and asked them about the recent information. 1601, was not used for parts. There was a person in 1996, who wanted to take some springs for another C&O locomotive, and The Henry Ford would not have it, they wanted to keep #1601 the way it was delivered. Second hand info of course.

Very close! They were injector parts and the musem did say no.

Donko142 wrote: Any of the others in a musem would be 1 to 2 million for sure.

To all:
For 2 million $ you have a steam locomotive made all-new in Germany by professional shop.
Including improved technical design specifications, improved thermodynamic efficiency and specific output.
You could have the engine designed as to externally duplicate a historic class or you could have a fully new design
- as you prefer.

Addendum July 23rd:
Hi Pennsy,
(ok, Germany is not producing steam by the series, sure, or else they should have a couple of high speed 4-8-4s running by now *g*).
What I wanted to say is: you can have a steam locomotive made all new by professional works that do overhaul steam locomotives and you can have all parts made including fully welded framework, fully welded boiler, cast steel spoked wheels, cast steel or welded design cylinders, crank axle/s if you wanted to have a three cylinder or four cylinder / compound engine.
For sure, parts can be made too. For instance you could have air pumps and feed pumps to proven DR or DB standard design or to design specified by customer. The DB standard MV 57 feed pumps used on reboilered and 1950s series types to go with mixing type preheater were extremely reliable, not even such redoubtable sheds as Hagen or Rheine were able to ruin them.
If seriously interested, write to my e-mail address.

Addendum July30th:
Pennsy - skilled: just see the engines running with new built boilers and cylinder etc some old or rare types restored from 'wreck condition' as nearly new-built engines.
Engineer James - so, no Allegheny neither for you, no?

Juniatha

Hi,

Didn't know that Germany was still producing Steam Locomotives. As an aside, could they also produce parts for existing steam engines, American, when such parts wear out here ??? Suitable engineering drawings or scale photographs of the parts needed could be provided. They might just be able to do it cheaper that the shops that many of our museums and tourist RR's are hard pressed to do. Just how skilled is skilled ???

NO..... I will never buy a german made steamer.... only a baldwin for me!!

The locomotive that was selected to go to the Ford Museum was the 1646 FYI, however as stated it was put into service. The 1601 was cosmetically restored ONLY in 1956, that did not mean she could not move under her own power either. And, as far as removing the 1601 from the Ford Museum...it CAN be done if they want to do it, and some one put up the money to do it...so it IS possible, but unlikely it will happen though...we could ONLY wish! The 1604 was put inside of a mall, actually the mall was built around her...and they reomved her from the mall...so where there is a will there is a way! Oh, by the way...ALL of the Alleghenys were built at LIMA! The Cadillac of SuperPower Locomotive designs!

Dave