Asked to stop taking pics at Kimball

Tonight, I think a motorman, asked me to stop taking pics at Kimball terminal. He said that I needed a permit. Do you really need a permit to photograph CTA from their platforms? Thanks. The guy was polite about it.

No. If you're a casual photographer taking photos for non-commercial use, you need no permit. Unfortunately, many CTA employees believe that you need a permit, and it's been like that for a while (as though management isn't actively telling anyone that hobbyist photographers don't need a permit). What you should do, if you have the info, is get the time, location, date, and if possible, any more specific info (such as the operator's badge number, or the train's run number) and forward those to the CTA's office of the inspector general (look for it on their website). It's the easiest thing you can do to ensure that the operator in question gets the proper facts that no, non-commercial photographers do not need a permit.

njt/mnrrbuff wrote:Tonight, I think a motorman, asked me to stop taking pics at Kimball terminal. He said that I needed a permit. Do you really need a permit to photograph CTA from their platforms? Thanks. The guy was polite about it.

Like Byte said you don't need a permit, I take photos of CTA trains, and buses all the time.

Here is the CTA photo policy off it's web site, I printed several copies of it, and put a few in my back pack, and in my camera bag, and in my paints pocket every time I take photos, in case somebody tries to stop me, or call the cops on me, and I will show them.

CTA Photo Policy:
http://www.transitchicago.com/business/photopolicy.aspx

Photo & Video Policy

The general public is permitted to use hand-held cameras to take photographs, capture digital images, and videotape within public areas of CTA stations and transit vehicles for personal, non-commercial use.

Large cameras, photo or video equipment, or ancillary equipment such as lighting, tripods, cables, etc. are prohibited (except in instances where commercial and professional photographers enter into contractual agreements with CTA).

All photographers and videographers are prohibited from entering, photographing, or videotaping non-public areas of the CTA’s transit system.

All photographers and videographers are prohibited from impeding customer traffic flow, obstructing transit operations, interfering with customers, blocking doors or stairs, and affecting the safety of CTA, its employees, or customers. All photographers and videographers must fully and immediately comply with any requests, directions, or instructions of CTA personnel related to safety concerns.
Safety Tips

* For everyone’s safety, do not use a camera’s flash if facing a person who is operating a train or bus.
* Be respectful of others - CTA customers and employees.
* Don't stand (or cause others to stand) in the way of stairs, aisles, escalators or doorways.
* Be careful! Your safety is very important to us, so stay away from platform edges and moving vehicles.
* Be safe! Don't inch backward with your camera to get a wider view - always look where you're going.

While on CTA premises, all photographers and videographers must comply with all applicable rules, including but not limited to, this policy, all applicable laws, ordinances, municipal regulations, standard operating procedures, and administrative procedures. CTA personnel may evaluate the actions of a photographer or a videographer, and if a determination is made that the actions of a photographer or videographer are not in compliance with any applicable rule, CTA personnel may terminate the permission granted by this policy.

CTA facilities and vehicles are for the exclusive use of the CTA, its employees, and its customers. Any and all permission granted to photograph and videotape in connection with this policy is subordinate to the CTA’s obligations to its customers, employees and to the general public. Loitering at CTA stations for extended periods for the purpose of taking photographs or video is prohibited.

For more information about the CTA’s Photo and Video Policy, or to make arrangements for professional, commercial, or other similar photograph and/or video activities, please contact the CTA at (312) 681-2741.

CTA personnel may evaluate the actions of a photographer or a videographer, and if a determination is made that the actions of a photographer or videographer are not in compliance with any applicable rule, CTA personnel may terminate the permission granted by this policy.

It seems that power remains with the common CTA employee to end one's permission based on their own determination. There doesn't seem to be an appeals policy. Once CTA personnel tell you to stop it is likely best to move on.

That's true, there's still a whole gray area where they can simply say "I don't want you taking pictures here" and it's legal. BUT, the assumption that anyone with a camera needs a permit is still false, and the CTA really should be educating their employees on this before someone with a lawyer on speed dial decides to make them abide by their own photo policy the hard and expensive way.

I had a bus driver on the 95E last weekend nearly deny me boarding because my camera was not in a bag. Maybe there's some current trend and management has told the rank-and-file to be more paranoid?

byte wrote:That's true, there's still a whole gray area where they can simply say "I don't want you taking pictures here" and it's legal. BUT, the assumption that anyone with a camera needs a permit is still false, and the CTA really should be educating their employees on this before someone with a lawyer on speed dial decides to make them abide by their own photo policy the hard and expensive way.

That is what it will take to change the policy to something that cannot be revoked by any CTA personnel based on their own opinion. Unfortunately most lawyers on speed dial work for a client and will do what serves that client - settling out of court for money not pushing for a long term solution for all. The notable Amtrak case disappeared into the abyss of settlement with Amtrak still violating their own policies. I don't see how a case against the CTA would change policy.

The assumption is those with a permit and a CTA chaperone can do anything the chaperone allows without relying on other CTA personnel to keep them safe or keep them from photographing sensitive areas. And that is the difficulty for CTA personnel who encounter a photographer / videographer without a permit or chaperone. It is easier for them to do their job (whatever that normal job is) if the passengers put the cameras away.

I try to be careful about what gets into my viewfinder but sometimes one can take a picture of sensitive non-public areas of a system (which is not allowed by this policy) without knowing that area is sensitive. I was once asked why I took a picture of a signal cabinet. I told the officer I was taking a picture of the switch in front of the cabinet. For some reason he was uncomfortable with me taking a picture of a locked gray metal box from 200 ft away. The point is that there was something there that raised alarm. Perhaps there was something in the viewfinder at Kimball that was more sensitive than the public knows?

One more note on the CTA policy ... CTA facilities and vehicles are for the exclusive use of the CTA, its employees, and its customers. ... Loitering at CTA stations for extended periods for the purpose of taking photographs or video is prohibited. It is a judgment call what an "extended period" is. Passengers are expected to be prepared to board and board vehicles promptly when they arrive and exit vehicles and facilities at the end of their trip - not hang around to take a lot of pictures. The CTA is also expecting people in their system to be passengers using the system for transportation, focused on getting from A to B not on the journey itself. Photographs are secondary to efficient travel.

To a certain extent the CTA is responsible for people in their system. People loitering may be preparing to commit a crime or be a target. While I want to be able to take pictures I don't want carrying an uncased camera to become the perfect cover for a loitering mugger. Nor to I want to become the next vitim by showing something worth stealing. Sometimes liberty has to take a back seat to safety. (This doesn't even get in to the bigger threat of a photographer / videographer "casing the joint" for a terrorist attack. This is just simple crime prevention.)

Take your ride ... take your pictures ... then move along. That's my photo policy.

The following is an instructional video for transit operators (motorman, bus drivers, etc) published by the US DOT a few years ago, to which a couple of photography-related CTA bulletins I came across had a hyperlink to: http://transit-safety.volpe.dot.gov/sec ... s-high.wmv (it is a LONG download)

The video makes it seem like the level of paranoia about "no pictures!" is being exaggerated by federal governing bodies even higher than the transit agencies themselves.

byte wrote:The following is an instructional video for transit operators (motorman, bus drivers, etc) published by the US DOT a few years ago, to which a couple of photography-related CTA bulletins I came across had a hyperlink to: http://transit-safety.volpe.dot.gov/sec ... s-high.wmv (it is a LONG download)

The video makes it seem like the level of paranoia about "no pictures!" is being exaggerated by federal governing bodies even higher than the transit agencies themselves.

The only shot I recall of a camera in that video is one where a car passenger is taking a photo apparently of a guard station. There isn't a heavy "anti-photo" vibe to the video. Most of it is spent on other issues such as trespass, suspicious packages and odd passenger behavior with no reference to photography.

(Some places the "drive by" is the only way to get a photo with pedestrian access restricted or no convenient places to park to walk to the photo site. But I can see where a guard with his mind set on the security of his position not knowing or understanding what the person in the car was taking a picture of and considering it suspicious. Fortunately the video didn't show dozens of camera involved scenes depicted as suspicious. Just that one - and *I* would consider the action as depicted suspicious.)

if you want pictures of trains and buses, go to a public street where you won't have a problem (ex. for buses 95th/Stony Island and ex. for trains, an overpass over the train tracks) what do you all think?

Or you can carry this:
http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

justalurker66 wrote: The only shot I recall of a camera in that video is one where a car passenger is taking a photo apparently of a guard station. There isn't a heavy "anti-photo" vibe to the video. Most of it is spent on other issues such as trespass, suspicious packages and odd passenger behavior with no reference to photography.

(Some places the "drive by" is the only way to get a photo with pedestrian access restricted or no convenient places to park to walk to the photo site. But I can see where a guard with his mind set on the security of his position not knowing or understanding what the person in the car was taking a picture of and considering it suspicious. Fortunately the video didn't show dozens of camera involved scenes depicted as suspicious. Just that one - and *I* would consider the action as depicted suspicious.)

I guess I read into it in a different way. Seems to me there's quite a bit of just flat-out paranoia in it, not only on photos. But that's just my opinion.

metra104 wrote: if you want pictures of trains and buses, go to a public street where you won't have a problem (ex. for buses 95th/Stony Island and ex. for trains, an overpass over the train tracks) what do you all think?

Or you can carry this:
http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

A public street is public property, just like an "L" platform. If a CPD Transit Detail police officer thinks photos are illegal or require some fictional permit, it's not likely that a regular CPD officer is going to somehow be more "enlightened" on the subject given that their duties don't normally bring them into transit facilities and they don't receive work bulletins and training for situations with enthusiast photographers. There was a well-documented (made the Tribune and Trains Magazine) case several years ago where a couple of guys taking photos along a Metra line somewhere in the western suburbs were told by a municipal cop that Patriot Act laws superseded the constitution and made railroad photography illegal. If that's not a terribly misinformed public servant I don't know what is.

And that Photographer's Rights pamphlet is a well-intentioned and interesting read, albeit useless for carrying around because it's full of holes like swiss cheese. Why? Here's an example paragraph from it, probably the one which most pertains to this thread:

Permissible Subjects

Despite misconceptions to the contrary, the following subjects can almost always be photographed lawfully from public places:

accident and fire scenes
children
celebrities
bridges and other infrastructure
residential and commercial buildings
industrial facilities and public utilities
transportation facilities (e.g., airports)
Superfund sites
criminal activities
law enforcement officers

See the two words I've underlined above? "Almost always?" Words like "almost always" and "usually" don't translate well into legal jargon. Think about it: Railroad photography may almost always be legal, but what about when it's not? If you really wanted to put up a big fuss for a transit employee/police officer and show them the pamphlet and what it says above, all they have to do is see that "almost always," which will result in this reply to your claim: "See here? Says 'almost always.' This doesn't apply to CTA/Metra/Pace/whoever, we have rules against photography and you need a permit." Which brings me to my next point...

...the only paperwork you should be carrying around with you is the agency's photo policy. If you can get a complaining employee of theirs to look at it - which some may refuse to - it has the regulations pertinent to that agency and not simple generalizations. My theory, however, is that if it gets to the point of having to pull out a copy of their photo policy to prove you're in the right, you need to take note of the employee's name/badge number, location, the time, etc., so you can report it later on. A photographer may tell an employee that they're wrong in the field, but that means far less than an official system-wide bulletin clarifying your actions as legal.

I've been having trouble all over the CTA system, but only in the past few days. Been run off by 3 station agents, 2 Securitas people, a controller at Forest Park and most recently a driver at Washington on the Blue line. All say I need a permit, which the PR department told me does not exist.

Deval wrote:I've been having trouble all over the CTA system, but only in the past few days. Been run off by 3 station agents, 2 Securitas people, a controller at Forest Park and most recently a driver at Washington on the Blue line. All say I need a permit, which the PR department told me does not exist.

Have you tried it from the public streets? they won't stop you there

Wanna bet? I was definitely hassled by a rentacop at Fullerton a few summers back one evening. He was not happy that I took a night shot of the station. From Fullerton street. I beat feet out of there, I don't care to argue with people like that.

Tadman wrote:Wanna bet? I was definitely hassled by a rentacop at Fullerton a few summers back one evening. He was not happy that I took a night shot of the station. From Fullerton street. I beat feet out of there, I don't care to argue with people like that.

if i got hassled by a rentacop, he'd see two birds flipped at him