Amtrak Long Distance Fleet Replacement - Superliner Replacement - Bilevel or Single Level

Matt Johnson wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:02 am I think the Viewliner II sleepers are great and I'd love to see more of that design, but I'm guessing that may be unlikely so I hope whatever comes next at least incorporates the best elements of those. Perhaps this is indicative of what Siemens might base its design on, though likely not with the Euro-style shared compartments that thankfully we don't have in the US.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pZkdvbgTnI

I would rather have my own Delta One Mini-Suite over this anytime. Just thinking of the reports of foot and body order in those shared compartments. Probably should add snoring too!

bostontrainguy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:06 pm I would rather have my own Delta One Mini-Suite over this anytime. Just thinking of the reports of foot and body order in those shared compartments. Probably should add snoring too!

Yeah I wouldn't expect to see a modern day couchette/slumbercoach on Amtrak. The full bedroom sleeper toward the end of the video is more in line with what might be a basis for a North American variant.

Matt Johnson wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:54 pm Yeah I wouldn't expect to see a modern day couchette/slumbercoach on Amtrak. The full bedroom sleeper toward the end of the video is more in line with what might be a basis for a North American variant.

I'm with you, but... um... bed size is 75" by 27.5". My 6' tall frame would barely fit, and they better have big blankets to cover.

Meanwhile, Amtrak's roomette is 78" by 28" on it's lower bunk.

I think I'm looking at mattress sizes again...

I still think the middle choice between a full bedroom and a coach seat needs to be a lie flat business class airline style seat.

If I'm going to have to smell someone else's smelly feet and midnight farts, I'd much rather be in a seat that can be upright for part of the journey than be trapped in a coffin.

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I think they got the roomette just about perfect on the Viewliner II. It would be nice if they could replicate those modules for whatever shell is chosen for the next gen fleet in my opinion.

Step 1. Go to IRM. Get the erection drawings for the HW Pullman 10 section, 1 drawing room, 2 compartment car.
Step 2: Computer model the plans for FRA safety compliance and max speed capability.
Step 3: Re arrange the drawing room as a handicap accessible room, complete with access to the ground. Convert the sections into enclosed sections. Keep the HW restrooms.
Step 4: Do the same with the HW 7 compartment-2 DR car.

eolesen wrote: ↑Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:21 am I still think the middle choice between a full bedroom and a coach seat needs to be a lie flat business class airline style seat.

From Hilton Miami Downtown--

Mr. Olesen, possibly you know if this some kind of SWAG or if it is "on mark".

I've learned that those pods cost upward of $100k each and I also know first hand they can be maintenance problematic.

So if a world class international airline has maintenance issues with such, can one imagine what the Amtrak passenger experience would be?

I don't know the unit cost, nor do I want to, but something rated to survive a 16G event in an aircraft environment (the requirement since 1988) is always going to cost more to develop and build.

Rail seating wouldn't need to be built to that standard, but it still might be cheaper to buy off the rack than design something custom just for Amtrak.

China already has moved this way on their high speed rail. I don't know if European HSR or Russian rail offer something similar but it wouldn't surprise me. Privacy isn't seen as an essential human right outside the USA....

https://www.travelchinaguide.com/china- ... s-seat.htm

Tens of thousands of business travelers fly in this type of seat every day, and I'll guess that thousands of HSR travelers do as well. Those air travelers are willing to pay 3x-10x the coach fare (arriving at the same time...) to have that level of comfort/sleep, and have no problem not being able to shower until they get to their destination hotel or an at-terminal showering facility (which I used religiously after an overnight flight before running into a meeting).

Why the rail enthusiast community insists on hard partitions with private toilets for an overnight trip will always be boggling to me. I'll admit that on an multi-day land cruise, there may be demand for sleepers. But that's five or six trains out of the entire LD network. You simply don't need that for the overnight to Florida or Chicago from the East Coast.

I have to admit the title threw me. Perhaps "new overnight trainsets" or "new overnight equipment" because I was suddenly getting excited about new routes!

Updated

Um, El Jeffe, I think we're covering this in the Superliner thread.

eolesen wrote: ↑Sun Jan 22, 2023 12:24 pm Why the rail enthusiast community insists on hard partitions with private toilets for an overnight trip will always be boggling to me. I'll admit that on an multi-day land cruise, there may be demand for sleepers. But that's five or six trains out of the entire LD network. You simply don't need that for the overnight to Florida or Chicago from the East Coast.

Because they're enthusiasts. They expect the classic hotel-on-rail experience of the by-gone era. They like privacy, and that sloshing toilet in the Viewliner I's has got to go (damn that's weird).

Meanwhile in Japan you got split services: A business class set that packs you in but still affords you privacy but gives you community bathrooms and showers, and a tourist class set which is more hotel like. The former will even pay for a section of a car-long mattress shared by others (which highlights a cultural difference).

Back here in the US, we can agree that Amtrak needs to balance these two competing groups, enthusiast/tourist/family (tourist) and business... and I do see Amtrak adding a dedicated business-style service to existing routes, with mostly roomette rooms.

Maybe this has been said by someone else already, but with all of the focus by Amtrak now on bringing stations up to current American with Disabilities Act (ADA) standards I can't imagine that the new equipment for the long distance routes will be bilevel.

To start with, bilevel cars might be required to have an elevator so that everyone has access to all areas of the car.

For those looking for background on the ADA issues that Amtrak has with their stations, please have a look at this link,
https://www.azdisabilitylaw.org/departm ... -problems/

I for one assume that Amtrak learned something after they agreed to the settlement with DOJ.

Train60 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:23 pm Maybe this has been said by someone else already, but with all of the focus by Amtrak now on bringing stations up to current American with Disabilities Act (ADA) standards I can't imagine that the new equipment for the long distance routes will be bilevel.

To start with, bilevel cars might be required to have an elevator so that everyone has access to all areas of the car.

For those looking for background on the ADA issues that Amtrak has with their stations, please have a look at this link,
https://www.azdisabilitylaw.org/departm ... -problems/

I for one assume that Amtrak learned something after they agreed to the settlement with DOJ.

I don't think bi-level cars is out of the question. Going single-level nationwide will be a big problem, from how the cars will need to carry lifts to how long they'll need to be to match existing service (and possibly need to be broken up).

On the opposite side, the doors and cowling would need significant redesign because I wouldn't put it up to the host railroads to have areas of track that cause... temporary closures of the passageway between cars. But then, you'll need lifts anyway because this is low-level equipment we're talking about.

Yeah, I'm getting a bit tired of the assumption that going single-level nationally would suddenly be a problem or issue for ground accessibility. If it's not a problem to run Amfleets, Horizons or Venture cars where 80% of the ridership is, then it shouldn't be a problem for the other 20% of the stations.

There are already portable wheelchair lifts (e.g. the crank-o-matics) available to get customers on/off a standard car height level.

There are also car-mounted lifts available commercially, similar to what Metra and other agencies use on their fleets.

Bi-levels are great for commuter service where you can do high density for short distances. It's been a 40 year experiment that never really proved necessary for long distance travel.