Amtrak Heartland Flyer Discussion and Possible Extension

That's a bad photoshop job, Amtrak....

Here's the original photo from years ago:
Notice how the contrails in the sky match? And there's no number on the engine?....

They've had several engines wear the lettering in the past, and it's sad they couldn't find a good enough photo to use of one of the real engines.

Advertising this is a bit foolish. The Flyer lets off in either Denton or downtown Fort Worth, both of which are a good 30-40 miles from "The Big Game" at the Cotton Bowl. If the Flyer actually went to Dallas instead of Fort Worth, this might be a little more useful.

eolesen wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 6:42 pm That's a bad photoshop job, Amtrak....

Here's the original photo from years ago:

E33_Qw7WQAQC5qY.jpg

Notice how the contrails in the sky match? And there's no number on the engine?....

They've had several engines wear the lettering in the past, and it's sad they couldn't find a good enough photo to use of one of the real engines.

Advertising this is a bit foolish. The Flyer lets off in either Denton or downtown Fort Worth, both of which are a good 30-40 miles from "The Big Game" at the Cotton Bowl. If the Flyer actually went to Dallas instead of Fort Worth, this might be a little more useful.

What you say is correct most of the year, but not during the UT-OU Cotton Bowl/State Fair weekend. The Heartland Flyer actually goes to Union Station in downtown Dallas where there are plenty of hotel rooms nearby for OU and UT fans can spend a weekend in Dallas.
Additionally, the Trinity Railway Express runs trains almost hourly between downtown Fort Worth and Dallas on Friday, Saturday, and Monday. The TRE usually does not run on Sunday. Amtrak usually adds cars to the Heartland Flyer that weekend.

Thanks, didn't know they shifted for the event weekend.

That really should be a permanent shift... as much as I love Fort Worth, Dallas Union is the real transit hub for the region.

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eolesen wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:47 am Thanks, didn't know they shifted for the event weekend.

That really should be a permanent shift... as much as I love Fort Worth, Dallas Union is the real transit hub for the region.

Would be nice, but would be a very expensive to accomplish. There are no available coach and locomotive storage tracks at Dallas Union Station that already exists in Fort Worth. Amtrak's TRE contract limits the number of trains for most of the year to two, the north and south bound Texas Eagles, and just 2-4 special trains a year the Heartland Flyer uses for OU-UT game. To change the contract, TRE would expect Amtrak (FRA) funding to finish double tracking the entire 30+ mile corridor between Fort Worth and Dallas. And then you would have to consider where to store the trains in Dallas to get them out of the way. You will not be allowed to park the trains in Dallas Union Station long.

As a reminder, the southbound Heartland Flyer enters Fort Worth first, and is moved to the storage tracks, and both Texas Eagles come next, sometimes at the same time, and the northbound Heartland Flyer departs last.

I am not saying these difficulties are impossible to overcome, but I am suggesting it will be impactible. The storage tracks needed to make the schedule work already exist in Fort Worth.

Which brings up an observation so many here do. They look at a map and suggest something is possible and very practicable to do, yet when looked under a microscope by a on the ground knowledgeable individual, the difficulties and impracticability becomes obvious.

Satellite imagery shows that most of the TRE route is already double tracked or in the process of being double tracked. Is that not the case. It's clear Ft Worth has storage facilities Dallas does not.

Regarding transit hubs, it appears (from their board minutes) TRE is considering either Alstom Concordia (like Metra) ordered or Stadler FLIRT cars and repeatedly noted that using Stadler Flirt cars would allow interlining with other transit in the region.

electricron wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:22 pm As a reminder, the southbound Heartland Flyer enters Fort Worth first, and is moved to the storage tracks, and both Texas Eagles come next, sometimes at the same time, and the northbound Heartland Flyer departs last.

The question I have, in the normal case, is thus: Does TRE have connecting service with the Heartland Flyer? I can see the one-seat appeal in the special case but in the normal case, could one hop off at Ft. Worth, hop on the TRE, and be off in... 15-20 minutes?

TRE trains are every 1/2 hour throughout the day through some trains from Ft Worth terminate at the DFW Airport station. The TRE maintenance center is just east of that station, so I guess that avoids a non-revenue move (some morning trains for Dallas start at Irving, the station just east of the maintenance center).

So no coordination, but possibly frequent enough that isn't an issue?

RandallW wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:24 pm TRE trains are every 1/2 hour throughout the day through some trains from Ft Worth terminate at the DFW Airport station. The TRE maintenance center is just east of that station, so I guess that avoids a non-revenue move (some morning trains for Dallas start at Irving, the station just east of the maintenance center).

So no coordination, but possibly frequent enough that isn't an issue?

Yep, not an issue here. Just take the TRE. Extending the Heartland Flyer to Dallas on a regular basis will incur too many problems already solved by current setup.

How does the Heartland Flyer get to Dallas on game days? Just pulls back along the TRE line?

What happened to the storage tracks SE of Dallas Union Station? They were used for MHCs drop and adds when the cars were still used to haul mail and other items..

electricron wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:22 pm Would be nice, but would be a very expensive to accomplish. There are no available coach and locomotive storage tracks at Dallas Union Station that already exists in Fort Worth.

Nah, there's plenty of room for a storage and servicing track immediately south of Dallas Union.

electricron wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:22 pm Amtrak's TRE contract limits the number of trains for most of the year to two, the north and south bound Texas Eagles, and just 2-4 special trains a year the Heartland Flyer uses for OU-UT game. To change the contract, TRE would expect Amtrak (FRA) funding to finish double tracking the entire 30+ mile corridor between Fort Worth and Dallas.

Uh, why?

Not saying it wouldn't be a bad idea to fill in the gaps, but BN and later BNSF used to run regular daytime trains thru the TRE's single track territory, and TRE got around $15M in funding from the FRA back in 2011 (which is when they shifted Amtrak to the Rock instead of the UP).

With 30 minute headways, accommodating another train should be doable for the section between Centerport and Beach Street.

Or... With PTC in place on the UP, maybe it's time to switch back to the original routing...

If you really want to spend money, run single-level coaches on this train and upgrade the DCTA and DART tracks so you can run under the wire between Carrolton and Dallas, and skip the TRE & Fort Worth altogether....

electricron wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:22 pm And then you would have to consider where to store the trains in Dallas to get them out of the way. You will not be allowed to park the trains in Dallas Union Station long.

Already noted -- there's plenty of room for a storage and servicing track immediately south of Dallas Union.

electricron wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:22 pm As a reminder, the southbound Heartland Flyer enters Fort Worth first, and is moved to the storage tracks, and both Texas Eagles come next, sometimes at the same time, and the northbound Heartland Flyer departs last.

I am not saying these difficulties are impossible to overcome, but I am suggesting it will be impactible. The storage tracks needed to make the schedule work already exist in Fort Worth.

So essentially.... "the facilities already exist, why think differently?"

This is a train that's useful one weekend every couple years. If it ran to Denton and thru the north Dallas suburbs, you'd probably see more ridership.

electricron wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:22 pm Which brings up an observation so many here do. They look at a map and suggest something is possible and very practicable to do, yet when looked under a microscope by a on the ground knowledgeable individual, the difficulties and impracticability becomes obvious.

My 14 years of living in the DFW area and rail fanning every inch of the lines in question was obviously not enough background? I'm guessing actually riding the TRE for a couple years made me that much more oblivious to their challenges...

RandallW wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:26 pm Regarding transit hubs, it appears (from their board minutes) TRE is considering either Alstom Concordia (like Metra) ordered or Stadler FLIRT cars and repeatedly noted that using Stadler Flirt cars would allow interlining with other transit in the region.

Flirts would make the most sense -- that's what's already running on the DFW line from Fort Worth and the most likely to run down to Granbury if that ever gets moving again.

Choosing Corradia's would require new locomotives at some point in the not so distant future. It's been over 20 years now that TRE's been running, and the expected passenger volumes never materialized.

Admittingly there is one track extending south of the Dallas Union Station the Heartland Flyer could use, it would be in the way of both Texas Eagles entering and leaving Dallas.
Union Station has three passenger platforms and 5 passenger rail tracks. From east to west, platform 1 with platform heights set for DART's SLRVs. track 1 and track 2 for SLRVs, platform 2 with platform heights sets for Dallas SLRVs and TRE commuter trains (both RDCs and Bombardier BiLevels, tracks 3 and 4 for TRE trains, platform 3 with platform heights sets for TRE and Amtrak trains, and Track 5 dedicated for Amtrak. Tracks 6 and 7 have no platforms and are reserved for freight trains used by DGNO, BNSF, and UP. It is common for TRE to stage trains on the tracks 3 and 4 two trains deep, so staging the Heartland Flyer there daily will cause difficulties for the TRE. On UT-OU weekend, not as much because the TRE runs fewer trains on Saturday and none on Sunday. But it would be an entirely different matter on Monday thru Fridays.
On a good day, three times a week in both direction, the Texas Eagle usually has two additional cars, one coach and one sleeper heading to or from Los Angeles. On these days the Texas Eagle uses most of the length of platform 3.
And while there may still be an additional track spur west of tracks 6 and 7 south of Union Station, that spur was only used by the B&B Circus train for the ex-Reunion Areana and has remained unused for over a decade.
FYI, the TRE is regulated by the FRA while DART is regulated by the FTA. These trains can not share the same tracks at the same time. That is why the trains run on tracks 1 and 2, and entirely separately on tracks 3 and 4. DART is not going to stop running Red and Blue Line trains thru Union Station to accommodate sharing their tracks with TRE trains, Flirts or not.

...and DCTA is regulated by the FRA because it's mixed service on that line.

Because of that, there is a somewhat cheaper alternative that could cut Fort Worth out of the equation:

1. Coming south from Gainesville, run southeast on the KCS Alliance sub to Lewisville...
2. Build a connector at Lewisville to the DCTA (Old MKT)
3. Run on DCTA run south to Carrolton
4. Build another connector between DCTA and the BNSF
5. Run on BNSF to the Irving Wye, and then in on the TRE to Dallas

Yeah, I know. It's fantasy. But the point remains that Dallas is the true regional hub, not Fort Worth....

Bottom line.... if anyone is serious about extending service east to Birmingham or south to Houston, there's going to have to be some accommodations at Dallas.

If that's happening, the Heartland should be in that equation.

Messrs. Olesen and Ron, since both of you either reside or are familiar with the region, it would appear that to interchange from the ATSF (Heartland Flyer) to the Rock Island (TRE) would be a backup around the T&P (UP) X-ing's SW quadrant, then heading through the NE for a forward ride over the Rock to Dallas. I recall reports that there is a train (freight) over that X-ing every fifteen minutes or so. Such a change of direction move would effectively tie up the X-ing for however long such would take.

Heartland Flyer sponsors: be thankful for small things that you can operate over to Dallas on the days of these sports events.

But who am I to know; I was last in Dallas during July '19 for less than 24hrs. That who trip was a "blur" of landing (American sure lets United et al know just who "owns" that place) and walking through DFW riding s shuttle bus interminably around the place to get dumped off at a little two car Yellow train that got to Arts Center, or within one block of my hotel (Marriott). After Dinner with my Niece that evening, it was repeat in reverse the whole process next morning.