Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

amtrakowitz wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2024 12:23 am There were portals built for THE Tunnel?

I remember they “broke ground”, but I also seem to remember NJ state funding was pulled not long after that.

No portals, but utility mapping and some excavation was done, in addition to property acquisition. That does save time and in fact there’s already resumed work happening there today.

The other reason for the southern swing is geology.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:07 amBut I think all here agree ARC was deeply flawed. Building an underground (some 100' down - just like the L I R R's GCT-E) was deeply flawed. First, the separation of Amtrak (MNR apparently as well) and NJT operations simply reduced the utility that a "union station" affords. And with the plan to take the two existing tunnels out of service for some two years for a top to bottom rebuild so they too will last for another 100 years would have been greatly complicated.

Penn Station was never a Union Station to begin with, but it certainly makes sense to have four tunnels that all have access to tracks on the other side. ARC would have had to take essentially 100% of NJT traffic in order to close one of the North River tunnels, but I don't believe that plan had a route to Sunnyside, so all the equipment would have to turn and burn back to NJ? With Gateway, they basically will have 3 tunnels for a decade or more after they are built, and eventually 4. 3 dropping to 2 when something goes wrong is FAR better than 2 dropping to 1.

I guess that is simply the price we pay for having our Democratic Republic.

The whole NYC transportation system suffers from absurd cost overruns. It costs around 8x to build anything in NYC compared to the low-cost, anti-union, and totalitarian Western Europe. It's completely ridiculous how many layers of essentially graft and legalized corruption are involved in NYC. Then, the railroads operate horribly inefficiently. The non-LIRR railroads only look good because they are not nearly as blatantly ridiculous is their waste and inefficiency as compared to LIRR itself, which is basically a parody of a functional railroad.

The whole NYC metro area suffers, because if capital costs were brought in line with Europe's to allow for large-scale capital infrastructure projects and operations were streamlined to make adding service much cheaper, it would be easy to re-zone and add more than a million new housing units in the metro area designed for TOD. Ultimately, the modal shift to transit this would create would at least partially end up getting backfilled by others using the highways, so it may not be as big of an environmental win, but it would be a huge economic win for the NYC metro area.

Sure, and pigs will fly. Let's throw in socialized healthcare while we're at it?

And you think NYC is bad? Go look at the price per mile for projects in California. 2nd Ave is cheap by comparison.

lensovet wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2024 10:16 pmSure, and pigs will fly. Let's throw in socialized healthcare while we're at it?

And you think NYC is bad? Go look at the price per mile for projects in California. 2nd Ave is cheap by comparison.

I'm setting the benchmark low by using Europe as the comparison. We really should be able to do it cheaper.

ElectricTraction wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:44 pm Penn Station was never a Union Station to begin with.....

Mr. Traction, possibly I should have been more precise with my use of the term "union station".

Quite correct, while it has had three, Penn Station never has had more than one owner in its 110+ years of life at any time. But it was a "union station" in that three distinct public rail transit agencies (soon to be four) use its facilities. However, we are "both on the same page" when we note that ARC would have greatly reduced Penn's utility.

The whole NYC transportation system suffers from absurd cost overruns. It costs around 8x to build anything in NYC compared to the low-cost, anti-union, and totalitarian Western Europe.

Wow to that; anti-union Western Europe? It's seems that when I have "gone over," I have had quick introductions to terms such as "Huelga" and "Streik". Many positions in more industries than rail that over here are "Non-Agreement", suddenly lose the "Non" over there.

Now so far as the political environment of "here vs. there". While there are interests "chipping away" at the various Democratic Republics, I'm inclined to think democracy at present over there is stronger in Western Europe than presently over here.

Since Western Europe came up: fehmarnbelt-tunnel-t175023.html

The Swedes and Germans can get this built in half the time, for less than half the money for a longer tunnel.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:47 amQuite correct, while it has had three, Penn Station never has had more than one owner in its 110+ years of life at any time. But it was a "union station" in that three distinct public rail transit agencies (soon to be four) use its facilities. However, we are "both on the same page" when we note that ARC would have greatly reduced Penn's utility.

True. It does have one owner (PRR, later Amtrak), but now hosts several other railroads.

Wow to that; anti-union Western Europe? It's seems that when I have "gone over," I have had quick introductions to terms such as "Huelga" and "Streik". Many positions in more industries than rail that over here are "Non-Agreement", suddenly lose the "Non" over there.

There was just a *little* bit of sarcasm dripping off of that statement. To prove the point that you can't blame unions or high cost of living for the NYC and US rail systems being so farked up cost wise.

Now so far as the political environment of "here vs. there". While there are interests "chipping away" at the various Democratic Republics, I'm inclined to think democracy at present over there is stronger in Western Europe than presently over here.

Likely so.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:47 amQuite correct, while it has had three, Penn Station never has had more than one owner in its 110+ years of life at any time.

ElectricTraction wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 3:52 pmTrue. It does have one owner (PRR, later Amtrak), but now hosts several other railroads.

Mr Traction, allow me to share a piece of information that I'm sure is "declassified" but known to a relative few who were "inside" at the time. From what I know of Mr. Carey's background, he could well be another.

Note that I said "three" owners while common knowledge dictates the two you note.

The third was Conrail, which for ONE NANOSECOND on April 1, 1976 (C-Day) owned Penn. The PC Estate conveyed ALL its assets, including Penn, and liabilities to Conrail. Then, that nanosecond later, Conrail conveyed Penn and the other Corridor properties included in the conveyance to Amtrak.

The reason was to shield Amtrak from the contingent liabilities arising from employee, other personal injury, and property damage claims, as well as a host of others such as arising from labor matters.

This is not "latrine talk"; I have actually examined documents establishing such to be the case.

Granted, NJ funding being cut didn't help, but had the overall price not been 5-8x more expensive than anywhere else except California, Gateway could have been underway years ago had NY ponied up a little more money and not expected a handout from the Feds.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:47 amNow so far as the political environment of "here vs. there". While there are interests "chipping away" at the various Democratic Republics, I'm inclined to think democracy at present over there is stronger in Western Europe than presently over here.

Hmmm... Watch the aftermath of the EU Parliament elections in France in just over two weeks and let me know if you still think that way. At least we have checks and balances that prevent 50.1% from running roughshod over the 49.9% situation we've been in for the last ten years or so.

Not sure this will work, but lest anyone doubt, on page A2,"they're working":

https://ereader.wsj.net/

Required a login...

eolesen wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:01 pm Hmmm... Watch the aftermath of the EU Parliament elections in France in just over two weeks and let me know if you still think that way. At least we have checks and balances that prevent 50.1% from running roughshod over the 49.9% situation we've been in for the last ten years or so.

The French liberals seem to have been a hair smarter than the ones on this side of the pond, that's for sure.

Gateway Development Commission awards $466M contract for tunneling between NY, NJ

First tunnel boring contract awarded, $466 million contract to bore two tunnels (with six cross overs) between Tonnelle avenue and a ventilation shaft in Hoboken.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gateway-deve ... 15081.html

That's a crossover every 850 feet. More expensive but should be very useful for recovering from issues like stuck trains etc.

Oh, these are passenger evacuation crossovers, not rail tracks. Bummer.