Amtrak considers narrower seats

Amtrak is considering using narrower seats like those on airplanes, according to a questionnaire that Amtrak sent me after my Dec. 24 trip from Alexandria, Va., to New York. Amtrak wanted to know whether it would affect my travel choices in the future if the seats were narrower.

Maybe this would apply only to the new trains Amtrak plans to buy. What would be the advantage except wider aisles? I hope that Amtrak would not consider 3&2 seating.

Converting existing coaches would be a big expense with the only gain being wider aisles. It would make passengers less comfortable, and I think that 3&2 seating (if it went that far) would increase nominal capacity but might actually reduce patronage.

Three or four years ago Amtrak was considering an economy class, and mentioned reducing leg room distance, less reclining pitch and narrower seats. I strongly suspect that 3x2, not a wider aisle, is contemplated. So first, business, coach and economy would be available on some corridor trains.

Being able to source from a supplier also selling to airlines would have advantages over trying to get parts from someone who likely hasn't had a major order for seats in 10-15 years.

Reducing width and not going with 3x2 would certainly help make cars more accessible.

I'm conflicted on this concept. If more seats lets Amtrak add additional lower-cost seats to improve ridership, it could be a good thing, as long as the larger seats remain available near current price points. However, if it means that larger seats go away or become a more expensive product than today, I'm against it. Comfort is the #1 reason I prefer the train over flying for many journeys and is a key differentiator for me. Anything that takes the train closer to just being a slower, more expensive flight is a bad thing, IMHO.

eolesen wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:33 am Being able to source from a supplier also selling to airlines would have advantages over trying to get parts from someone who likely hasn't had a major order for seats in 10-15 years.

Reducing width and not going with 3x2 would certainly help make cars more accessible.

I prefer larger than standard normal airline seats, but if they have to special order them, I see the logic.

eolesen wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:33 am Being able to source from a supplier also selling to airlines would have advantages over trying to get parts from someone who likely hasn't had a major order for seats in 10-15 years

I'm not sure about this. Airline seats are specified to air standards, and have flotation devices in the cushions (successfully used only once in the history of commercial flight, if I recall). Whereas train seating is worldwide in metro (not applicable), commuter and intercity. Motor coach seating would overlap though.

It's to allow for wider aisles and allow disabled passengers to move throughout the trainset; there's zero chance Amtrak is going to introduce 3:2 seating. Brightline uses narrower seats for the same reason.

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That’d be a quick way to end me ever paying one thin dime for Amtrak service.

It’d equally be a fast way to encourage my 3 legislators to vote against ANY Amtrak request for appropriations.

It’s that simple.

Alphaboi wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:27 pm It's to allow for wider aisles and allow disabled passengers to move throughout the trainset; there's zero chance Amtrak is going to introduce 3:2 seating. Brightline uses narrower seats for the same reason.

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Fine. Build a disabilities section on on one car per consist, 1 seat per passenger. Charge them coach fares in compliance with ADA.

PULLMAN, once upon a time, had a name for this accommodation … A PARLOR CAR SEAT

Here’s another parlor, from the Southern Pacific in the streamliner era. Take out the smoking stands and you have room for a wheelchair.

Lets see how much room we got. The Viewliner II's are 10.5' wide per Wikipedia. Some googling has the average wheelchair between 24"-27" wide. Amtrak restricts the maximum wheelchair to 30" wide.

And this is where I rough guestimate here. I'm assuming the walls are 6" thick, leaving 9' 6" of room. That's 114" wall to wall.

Amtrak's seat size is 23" wide, which gives 22" of isle space. To fit a 24" wide wheelchair, seats need to share 90" of space... or 22.5" wide seats. To fit a 30" wide wheelchair, seats need to share 84" of space... or 21" wide seats.

For comparison, most airline economy seats average 17" to 18".

This is why Viewliners have a section up front of their coaches where wheelchair bound folks can park with plenty of room.

John_Perkowski wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 4:51 pm
PULLMAN, once upon a time, had a name for this accommodation … A PARLOR CAR SEAT

Employed as recently as the Budd Metroliner

Thanks for the numbers and calculations, Mr. Wolf. It sounds to me as though it would be possible to accommodate most wheelchairs with a negligible narrowing of the seats. And maybe some of that narrowing could come out of the armrests next to the windows, which could perhaps also be made to fold up if the window passenger preferred an extra couple inches of width.

I'd say it's reasonable to make that change to make the trains accessible to more people. I've also read elsewhere in this forum that the ADA can be read to require passengers in wheelchairs to be able to move from car to car at least on trains with cafes, diners, or other special cars; if that's the case, it's not just reasonable, it's the law. And I suspect it would gain Amtrak support from organizations working for the rights and convenience of people with disabilities, not to be sneezed at.

Legroom is another story. At my 6'2", I really appreciate Amtrak's substantial legroom even on short-distance coaches. I would not like to see that reduced, especially since it also makes it perfectly polite to recline your seat without worrying about squashing the person behind. And reducing legroom would only be about fitting more people on, not about increasing accessibility.

kitchin wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:47 pm

eolesen wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:33 am Being able to source from a supplier also selling to airlines would have advantages over trying to get parts from someone who likely hasn't had a major order for seats in 10-15 years

I'm not sure about this. Airline seats are specified to air standards, and have flotation devices in the cushions (successfully used only once in the history of commercial flight, if I recall). Whereas train seating is worldwide in metro (not applicable), commuter and intercity. Motor coach seating would overlap though.

Trust me, with what happens to seat cushions, you want them removable......

The 16g crash standards for aircraft seating and rail seating aren't entirely incompatible. Motor coach speeds are a max of 75, which might not be good enough for rail crash standards.

Having adjustable seat tracks in the floor of a railcar isn't new -- I'm pretty certain some of the Chinese HSR sets have them. Then again, they also utilize first class lie-flat airline style seating... which would revolutionize day travel on Amtrak but nobody wants to part with compartment sleepers.

There'd also be no excuses for not having a seat belt available to those who want one.

I don't think you want to go the model of transit seating. They have no moving parts and are made to be hosed off with a power washer...

John_Perkowski wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 4:51 pm PULLMAN, once upon a time, had a name for this accommodation … A PARLOR CAR SEAT

Colonel, the first time I rode in a Parlor Car was during July '46 GCT to Westerly with my Grandmother, who didn't know what a Coach was.

Guarantee you, I wasn't dressed as were those (excursion road) passengers (not slobs but not "business casual") - let alone my Grandmother who needed some fifteen minutes facing a mirror to put her hat on.