Amtrak considers extending Wolverine line from Chicago to Toronto via (VIA?) Detroit

Interesting. Let's move on though.

The NCAA forced the issue of retiring the Chief by threatening to deny UIUC and other schools from post-season tournaments. Just like when Land O Lakes removed the Indian and kept the land (their logo), Illinois removed the Chief but kept the Illini name.

The direction we seem to be heading as a country, it's just a matter of time before soneone comes for those train names.

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By the time I was at the U of I (late 1990s), a great many Native American groups and individuals were on record objecting to the university having some white guy dress up as a sort-of Indian, in university colors and no particular tribe's regalia, and dance around for the amusement of a bunch of non-Native people. And a lot of us non-Native students agreed--not just grad students like me, but many undergrads who, for example, would put a special pin over the chief on their team jackets when out and about on campus. There was a lot of debate on campus, but the strongest voices for keeping the Chief were alumni and non-alumni who were fans of the teams. I never got the sense that people who wanted to keep the Chief meant to insult anyone; they always seemed to actually think it was a kind of honor to local Native American people. It's just that most of those people didn't agree.

I gather some Native American group or other had earlier advised the university on a redesign of the Chief's regalia and dance to be more authentic, but that the more common opinion by the 1990s what that whatever the university said, using Chief Illiniwek as a sports mascot and ad was exploiting, not honoring, Native Americans.

<cough> Wolverine <cough>

Sorry, Jeff, but I can't let a fact check go quietly.

Arborwayfan wrote: ↑Tue Oct 01, 2024 10:18 pm some white guy dress up as a sort-of Indian, in university colors and no particular tribe's regalia, and dance around for the amusement of a bunch of non-Native people.
<snip>
I gather some Native American group or other had earlier advised the university on a redesign of the Chief's regalia and dance to be more authentic, but that the more common opinion by the 1990s what that whatever the university said, using Chief Illiniwek as a sports mascot and ad was exploiting, not honoring, Native Americans.

Well... that's how history gets skewed....

Chief was part of the University Bands, and never performed officially without the Marching Illini or the Basketball Band. The one who stayed in my home in 1984 (along with the regalia) was Korean. The last unofficial Chief was Mexican. So it wasn't "white guys" alone.

There never was an official "Illini" tribe -- there were several tribes in the state, but none had a presence in Illinois since the 1850's. The original Chief from the 1930's was derived from the Boy Scouts Order of the Arrow, including the dance and regalia. As time went on, the regalia evolved. The last regalia created (1983) was hand made by a Lakota Sioux spiritual leader named Frank Fools Crow. Gary Smith (then director of the athletic bands, now retired) worked with Frank Fools Crow and other tribal resources to ensure authenticity while also ensuring that the components weren't disrespectful, e.g. turkey feathers were substituted for the head dress instead of using the traditional eagle feathers, which are considered sacred. It's now in the hands of Fools Crow family.

I've known Gary for over 40 years, and believe his account of things as well as what I experienced first-hand as part of the University Bands program. What's on Wikipedia is clearly slanted and written to support the ban.

Regardless... it was not a decision made by the University voluntarily. It was made by the NCAA and folks outside the University for reasons of political and cultural correctness.

I still maintain it's just a matter of time before the NCAA, NFL, and NLB come for the remaining "culturally insensitive" team names like the Chiefs, Braves, Seminoles, etc. just as Jeep will eventually have to retire the Cherokee. Will they have to rename the Gladiator if enough Italian-Americans complain? Probably not.

Meanwhile, Clingman's Dome in Great Smokey National Park was just renamed to its Cherokee name Kuwohi... So some things it's OK to name, other things it's not.

Coming back to trains....

I still say it's just a matter of time for the Southwest Chief, Illini, and Hiawatha. I'm surprised they haven't done so already.

VIA dropped the name on several trains with several tribal / First Nations namesi.e. the Abitibi, Malihat, and Mohawk, although I'm not sure if it was just a blanket move or deliberate.

ryanwc wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2024 8:06 pm What I would like to see is improvements on the south side and elsewhere along the I/S route that provide greater reliability and maybe 35 minutes, so that the existing service takes just 5 hours, along with improvements south of Carbondale that get that 5-hour, 220-mile segment down to 4:15 (still just a 50mph average.). And then run both trains plus an additional frequency to Memphis.

As long as the Illini and Saluki regional trains subsidized by Illinois are using Superliner stock because of track shunting issue, I am against any improvements of services to this corridor as for frequencies or extensions. Those Superliners are needed on the western intercontinental trains, as many as Amtrak can find and keep in service. Using them on regional trains wastes a valuable and limited resources.
Before considering additional frequencies or extensions, fix the shunting issues should be the number one priority on this corridor, superior to anything else.

As for extending any train, including the Wolverine or Blue Water, someone needs to buy more rolling stock. Extending just one round trip train that far will require two more trainsets. When the Blue Water, ex International, was extended to Toronto, Amtrak provided one Bombardier LRC train upgraded to USA FRA standards and VIA provided a second.
Amtrak disliked it so much because it was very expensive to maintain they just abandoned it, tried using Superliners instead. One train crash later in Canada investigated by Canada resulted in Superliners being banned in Canada. The International died quickly to be replaced by the USA only Blue Water.
What makes anyone think an extension of the Wolverine service will have better results?
Well, both Amtrak and VIA are buying Siemens Venture cars and trains. That regulation hurdle of using dissembler trains could be eliminated. The question remains, who will pay for the rolling stock?