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Amtrak combining the Silver Star and Capitol Limited (a new Floridian?)

Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

Re: Amtrak combining the Silver Star and Capitol Limited (a new Floridian?)

  by Tadman
 
STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 11:09 am Seriously, the gallery cars? The ones that you still have to walk up to get to the "lower" level? Those cars?
...
I'm for having some Gallery cars for museum pieces, but that's it. Melt down the rest and recycle the spoils.
Do you mean like every other car on the system save for Acela? Traps and steps are still real man. Even on the brand new Siemens cars.

Image

And remember, they are cars built out of stainless by a maker known for rock solid reliability for 40 years. And CNW ran intercity gallery cars, too. It was model that worked really well.
STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 11:09 am That said... folks have to remember, the primary goal of the Floridian plan was to accommodate having one of the East River tunnels be taken offline for rebuild work. They had this study in hand that folks in Chicago wanted to go to Miami et al by train. And they had the shortage of Superliners.
I thought it was because they had a superliner shortage??? I never know what's really going on through the smoke and mirrors they put out. And that study... how did they find the 20 people per day in Chicago that wanted a Florida train, out of a city of 8 million metro area people wherein 42,000 of them take the plane to Florida? (that's 282 flights per Kayak.com times average 150 seats in 737/a320).

None of this adds up or passes the sniff test. None of it.

Re: Amtrak combining the Silver Star and Capitol Limited (a new Floridian?)

  by lordsigma12345
 
There was a need to truncate the Star due to the East River tunnels. The issue was when 92 hits NYP. They decided to try this because of the benefits it would have for redeploying the Cap’s Superliners. Seemed like a fairly straightforward reasoning to me.

Amtrak did also state that this is the most requested long distance routing that they get.

Re: Amtrak combining the Silver Star and Capitol Limited (a new Floridian?)

  by electricron
 
We must also remember that there are 4 tunnels under the East River, and how long the repairs will take for each tunnel. If half a year per tunnel, that's a two years in total for the repair to all the tunnels. Half a year is probably unrealistic, it could be three to four to five years for all the repairs to be done. I don't know, I doubt anyone knows. So this temporary change after a few years could become permanent. :(

Re: Amtrak combining the Silver Star and Capitol Limited (a new Floridian?)

  by STrRedWolf
 
Tadman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 4:09 pm Do you mean like every other car on the system save for Acela? Traps and steps are still real man. Even on the brand new Siemens cars.
No, not like every other car on the system.
Image

And a shot of the inside via Wikipedia:
Image

Caltrain had them. VRE probably still runs their own. And frankly put, you can do much better. Put the Gallery cars out of their misery.
STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 11:09 am That said... folks have to remember, the primary goal of the Floridian plan was to accommodate having one of the East River tunnels be taken offline for rebuild work. They had this study in hand that folks in Chicago wanted to go to Miami et al by train. And they had the shortage of Superliners.
I thought it was because they had a superliner shortage??? I never know what's really going on through the smoke and mirrors they put out. And that study... how did they find the 20 people per day in Chicago that wanted a Florida train, out of a city of 8 million metro area people wherein 42,000 of them take the plane to Florida? (that's 282 flights per Kayak.com times average 150 seats in 737/a320).

None of this adds up or passes the sniff test. None of it.
I'm more thinking it's:
"Hey, LIRR's lightening the load for us, we gotta repair the East River tunnels because Superstorm Sandy, what can we do on our end so we can rebuild one tunnel at a time?"
"Every Regional train that terminated in NYP reverse-runs."
"Service them in station, not at Sunnyside."
"That's still not enough..."
"Hey, did you see that study from the FRA about a Chicago-Florida line?"
"They can do that already with the Capitol Limited transferring to the Silver Star."
"How about single seat, no transfer?"
"Yeah, but... where are we going to get the Superliners?"
"That's the great part! You don't! Viewliner and Amfleet the entire stretch."
"Oh yeah, that'll help out! Use the Superliners for other places."

In other words, it was an aligning of interests. I have no doubt that freeing up Superliners was a happy accident.

Re: Amtrak combining the Silver Star and Capitol Limited (a new Floridian?)

  by RandallW
 
Why would it be better for Amtrak to purchase used equipment from a manufacturer that left the market (and presumably can't provide parts) instead of repairing the existing maintenance backlog? It seems that adding a new fleet of cars just means the same maintenance teams that are struggling to keep up with the maintenance requirements of equipment they know would be saddled with learning to maintain a new type of equipment without vendor support, leading to even less equipment availability, when getting the existing backlog addressed would also solve the equipment availability problem.

I've read that BR had to install scrubbers on DMUs that use disc brakes to address signaling problems caused by the fact that tread brakes clean the running surface of wheels while disc brakes don't. Could CN be demanding heavier axle weights to compensate for dirty wheels (especially in autumn)?

Re: Amtrak combining the Silver Star and Capitol Limited (a new Floridian?)

  by Tadman
 
Why would it be better for Amtrak to purchase used equipment from a manufacturer that left the market (and presumably can't provide parts)

Including Caltrain, there are something like 660 Sumitomo gallery cars out there in the USA, including 500 at Metra. Ever since the 1981 NICTD first order, the business model has been to use locally sourced parts as much as possible such as GE propulsion equipment and similar for HVAC, trucks, couplers, wheels, etc... This may be the largest quasi-homogenous fleet in North America on FRA tracks. They also have a very good record on Metra for being reliable in heavy commuter service in snow and ice. I would suggest that its better to buy something we know can handle hard operation than another science experiment.
No, not like every other car on the system.
What cars other than Superliners and Acela don't have traps and steps? (100) Horizon, (445) Amfleet I, (135) Amfleet II, (180) Viewliners, plus most commuter operators that dont' have BBD bilevels. We're looking at the bulk of the US passenger fleet.

And just because all gallery cars today are configured for commuter doesn't mean they have to remain that way. Look at the way C&NW had theirs setup for Wisconsin corridor service:

Marty Bernard / Roger Puta pic:
Image

Image

Image

Image

Re: Amtrak combining the Silver Star and Capitol Limited (a new Floridian?)

  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Thank you, Mr. Dunville, for locating those interior photos of the C&NW bi-levels taken by The Late Roger E. Puta, who I knew at University of Illinois, and Marty Bernard, whom I have met.

I rode those bi-levels, circa.'67, and they did have both the Parlor and Dining Car depicted.

They came about as part of a later '50's "deal" that "Uncle Bennie" (Heineman, C&NW CEO) made with the regulatory agencies that let us get rid of all our intercity trains other than Chicago-Wisconsin, and we will re-equip those. The deal was accepted so C&NW ordered cars mechanically compatible with their commuter train fleet (some remain in METRA service today). The intent was there to convert them to commuter cars.

Dig out your August '58 TRAINS for a more complete article.

I'm not certain if any were actually converted as some saw Amtrak service such as the Illinois Zephyr and the Valpo Local.
Last edited by Gilbert B Norman on Mon Oct 07, 2024 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Amtrak combining the Silver Star and Capitol Limited (a new Floridian?)

  by Tadman
 
Not really, I've never bumped my head in a gallery car. Also not that much different than a first class seat on a 737/757. Le Compagnie and British Air have transatlantic narrow bodies.

Image

Re: Amtrak combining the Silver Star and Capitol Limited (a new Floridian?)

  by eolesen
 
bostontrainguy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 1:02 pm Lots of bumped heads, no?
It's no worse than ducking an overhead bin on a 737 or MD80, much less a regional jet.

Prof. Norman, none of the original intercity cars survive in service, or at least in their original form:
Code: Select all
The CNW bi-levels were in the Amtrak fleet is longer than they were in service on the Flambeau and Peninsula 400's with the CNW.

Only one of the cars was converted to commuter service after 1971. Another was scrapped by Amtrak after a 1992 wreck near Springfield, IL, and the remaining 11 were retired in the mid 1990's and sold at scrap value.

Some of the retired cars wound up on the Great Lakes Western and were repainted into green and yellow for the few years that was in operation as an excursion fleet. 

Two of the GLW cars (ex 700 and 703) wound up in Nashville never to run again, and were scrapped by the NERR after stripping them for parts for other bi-levels used on the Nashville Star.

Four wound up with the Florida Fun Train, which had them gutted and rebuilt by Colorado Railcar, ultimately winding up on the Alaska Railroad.

Another six are presumed to have been bought by Colorado Railcar and used for their trucks and frames.

Likely Scrapped 
CNW 700 AMTK 9611 AMTK 9621 NERR 700 Presumably scrapped
CNW 703 AMTK 9614 AMTK 9624 NERR 703 Presumably scrapped

Alaska (cars are still in operation as lounge/snack cars)
CNW 600 AMTK 9600 GLWX 600 ARR 452
CNW 706 AMTK 9617 GLWX 706 RRCX 9012 ARR 451
CNW 707 AMTK 9618 RRCX 9014 AAR 352
CNW 903 AMTK 9601 GLWX 903 RRCX 9011 ARR 351

Colorado Railcar (cars used for parts)
CNW 701 AMTK 9612 AMTK 9622 GLWX 701 
CNW 702 AMTK 9613 
CNW 704 AMTK 9615 
CNW 705 AMTK 9616 
CNW 708 AMTK 9619 
CNW 709 AMTK 9620 

MTDX / Iowa Pacific
CNW 6400 Converted CNW 225 RTA 7880 METX 7880, MTDX 7880:  Painted for AMT (Montreal) and last stored in Bensenville IL,  up for auction in 2021 as part of IPH's liquidation

Re: Amtrak combining the Silver Star and Capitol Limited (a new Floridian?)

  by Red Wing
 
Haven't Superliners come back at the same rate that they've been wrecked?
Also Gallery cars were used on the Alaska RR as part of their version of the Auto Train which was retired when the tunnels were redesigned to include vehicle traffic.
Lastly who cares if someone rides from Chicago to Florida? I care that the train has enough passengers turnover between Chicago and Florida to make it work.

Re: Amtrak combining the Silver Star and Capitol Limited (a new Floridian?)

  by Tadman
 
Red Wing wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 9:16 pm
Lastly who cares if someone rides from Chicago to Florida? I care that the train has enough passengers turnover between Chicago and Florida to make it work.
Good point and I think we all acknowledge that's the beauty of the train. It can stop and pickup/drop passengers en route. It's a very useful thing for example on the Wolverine when I can board in Niles and get to Detroit without driving to Detroit or driving to Midway (in the other direction).

But when the train is delayed a few hours in Hammond, then misses its slot to hand off to CSX in Cleveland and loses a few more hours, then is way late into DC and there isn't platform for it (keep in mind only few low-tunnel platforms there) and loses some time, then is so seriously late for its slot on CSX going south that is keeps losing 20m here, 30 there, maybe an hour behind a rock train... this train is pretty useless to the person that wants to ride Savannah to Orlando, or Orlando to Miami.
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