Amtrak combining the Silver Star and Capitol Limited (a new Floridian?)

INteresting analysis but it makes my head spin with the plethora of bad and illogical decisions.

lordsigma12345 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 01, 2024 2:30 pm
2) Amtrak is running more Sleepers on the Auto Train (9 during peak season) than they did pre pandemic as part of the strategy to make that train run in the black.

Isn't this robbing peter to pay paul? Make Autotrain a bigger money maker and Capitol a bigger loser?

3) Superliners have been running on the CHI-CDL Corridor service since 2019 due to the CN shunting issues.

I don't understand this at all, as Amtrak only owns four-wheel equipment. Amtrak also sold off some Horizons and baggage cars that could've been dragged locked and empty. They could also buy those Caltrains gallery cars. All of which could be cheap, locked, and empty, instead of revenue equipment running empty and causing revenue car shortages.

. This is the big issue driving poor availability of the SC44 Chargers owned by the Midwest states. ... state are basically at the back of the line for Charger parts from Siemens

This model has been in service since what, 2017? When do we learn from the problems and make some changes? Order a large set of backup parts in advance? Keep a few more Genesis online and ready? Buy some SD70MACH as backups?

I'm not trying to argue with Lordsigma's analysis as I believe it comes from good sources and is honest info, but I just shake my head every day about how much equipment got the toss over the last ten years and now we have an equipment shortage.

I also have zero idea how they're going to run X new long distance and/or corridor routes when it is painfully obvious the railroad is near a breaking point as-is.

Mr. Dunville, "Amtrak Joe" leaves office in 110 days; and neither of his two possible successors honestly "give a hoot" about passenger trains - especially the Long-Distance varietal.

So I think it a very safe assumption the LD initiative under Joe's watch will simply be a pile of coloring books - most of which will be in the dumpster.

ha Amtrak Joe didn't give a hoot, either. He had an opportunity (along with Ms. Harris who comes from what is probably the biggest state-supported corridor state) to broaden the state-supported corridor and regional corridor model into a environmentally safe public transportation option and did nothing.

The biggest passenger train projects of note in the last few years were in Florida and Indiana and Amtrak wasn't at the table. They were busy trying to find four-axle passenger cars to swap for four axle passenger cars to meet axle count requirements n stuff.

Tadman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 7:54 am

3) Superliners have been running on the CHI-CDL Corridor service since 2019 due to the CN shunting issues. They could also buy those Caltrains gallery cars. All of which could be cheap, locked, and empty, instead of revenue equipment running empty and causing revenue car shortages.

The only problem with the Caltrain cars is that they may be close to needing a COT&S. Also, the wheels might need profiling to be the same as Superliners?

mod note- fixed quotes

Tadman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 7:54 am I don't understand this at all, as Amtrak only owns four-wheel equipment. Amtrak also sold off some Horizons and baggage cars that could've been dragged locked and empty. They could also buy those Caltrains gallery cars. All of which could be cheap, locked, and empty, instead of revenue equipment running empty and causing revenue car shortages.

According to all the official information on the CN it is a matter of both weight and axle count and the Superliners are the only car Amtrak has currently that meets CN's weight requirement. And in order for a car to count towards their required axle count of seven cars it must also meet the weight requirment - any car in the consist that doesn't meet the weight doesn't count. For example when they run a Viewliner baggage car on the CONO it doesn't count towards axle count. So basically both the revenue and axle count cars must be Superliners. This rule applies to both the Illini/Saluki and the City of New Orleans (so in addition to having to use Superliners on the corridor service they also can't pull a coach off the CONO and send it elsewhere if there is a time when it would be better suited elsewhere.) As for the Gallery cars - from what I had heard they wouldn't meet the weight requirement.

On all the other lines where this issue exists (Lincoln Service/Missouri River Runner is the one that comes to mind) it's strictly an axle count requirement - so they just tack on empty baggage cars to the Venture trainsets. This was previously done on the Illini/Saluki line as well. but CN instituted the weight requirement on them in 2019 if I recall. Most people agree that the weight thing is ridiculous, but it's CN's railroad.

Apparently, the antenna contraption they have come up with as a final solution to this mess works. It's awaiting FRA approval. If it meets approval then they can plan the shift to Horizon/Venture equipment. They might not be able to make the switch away from Superliners right away with the available single level cars but they could at least immediately cease running the axle count cars and just run with what they need for revenue service which would free up some cars.

Tadman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 7:54 am This model has been in service since what, 2017? When do we learn from the problems and make some changes? Order a large set of backup parts in advance? Keep a few more Genesis online and ready? Buy some SD70MACH as backups?

Amtrak has recommended an overhaul program for the state units to IDOT (who is the managing agency of the midwest state equipment partnership) that includes some modifications to address some of the "lessons learned" from these earlier units. One is they are modifying the noses to match the ALC 42 which can be repaired much more quickly after a grade crossing crash. The current design on the SC44 units results in long repair outages following a crash. I believe they recently started testing the first unit to receive the overhaul. There are funding constraints at the state level that complicate this however - currently the funding isn't there to cover overhauling all the units. IDOT put in a grant request to the Federal State Partnership grant program last year for overhauls which was not awarded. I heard from elsewhere that Amtrak on behalf of IDOT and the other states reapplied this year under the CRISI program so we'll see what happens.

This situation actually shows one of the disadvantages of the states procuring their own equipment for Amtrak service - they take on some of the funding obligations that would otherwise be Amtrak's. As far as the SD70MACHs, that would be up to IDOT and the other states to do if it was something they were interested in. If they want access to a larger amount of backup Amtrak Genesis units, I am sure Amtrak would oblige but it's not likely without costs to the states. That's the problem with the arrangements. The states had to buy these new units, have to pay for the overhauls while at the same time have to pay Amtrak for more Genesis units in the pool when the pool is short on Chargers.

Mr. Lord, this video posted at the Worldwide Forum suggests that the overseas rail equipment sources selling over here are also having "QC" issues with what they sell over there:

post1652259.html#p1652259

If it is weight just add sandbags? Otherwise, if CN declines it is just really petty.

How many grade crossings are we talking about, and what sort of cost to reticfy? Not like the technology hasn't been around as long as Amtrak has?

Reality Check: https://neo-trans.blog/2024/09/25/reali ... o-florida/

Realities behind Amtrak’s ‘new’ train to Florida


Amtrak cannibalizes trains to keep others running


While Amtrak’s press release about the creation of a direct-but-temporary Chicago-Florida passenger rail service through Cleveland touted it as an achievement, the reality behind it is actually quite different. According to several sources, the direct service is being implemented to rescue Amtrak from its own shortcomings — both internal and external.
...
“There’s two things at work here,” said James Tilley, co-chair of The Aurora Group, a nationwide nonprofit rail advocacy group and president of the Florida Coalition of Rail Passengers. He lives in Jacksonville which is served by the Silver Star. One issue is the New York City tunnel repairs, he agreed. “The other is a pressure point resulting from a shortage of bilevel cars (called Superliners) in the west,” Tilley said.

He cited internal Amtrak maintenance data that, as recently as last month, Amtrak had only 366 Superliners available for service nationwide. In 2018 Amtrak’s Corporate Planning Department reported that the bare minimum number of Superliners required to support its National System operating plan was 387 cars.
...
Tilley also noted that Amtrak’s Capitol Limited uses three trains of five cars each or 15 Superliner cars total per day, potentially bringing the total number of available Superliners back up to as many as 381 cars. “That’s still lower than the minimum number of Superliners. It’s not going to be enough.”
...

west point wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 1:01 pm

Tadman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 7:54 am

3) Superliners have been running on the CHI-CDL Corridor service since 2019 due to the CN shunting issues. They could also buy those Caltrains gallery cars. All of which could be cheap, locked, and empty, instead of revenue equipment running empty and causing revenue car shortages.

The only problem with the Caltrain cars is that they may be close to needing a COT&S. Also, the wheels might need profiling to be the same as Superliners?

mod note- fixed quotes

All very valid points. But a new passenger car (siemens venture) is $2.7m and 2-3 years out. One of those gallery cars can probably be bought for scrap, so figure $25k. You probably need COT&S and other refurb, so $20k more. Maybe they go wild and setup a long term refurb program where these cars get interiors suited to 4-8 hour rides. According to news sources it was $28mil/450 cars last time this happened, so $62k/car.

Looks like all told, for less than $100k up front and maybe $130-150k total, (times 65 coaches and 25 cab cars), you have stainless steel cars ready to roll within a few weeks.

What could you do with those 90 cars?

-Add 3 axle count cars to 8 midwest-CN consists (24 cars)
-Equip the entire Hiawatha set (8 coaches, 2 cabs)
-Equip the future Mobile train (8 coaches, 2 cabs)
-Equip the Flyer (8 coaches, 2 cabs)
-Equip the future Duluth train (8 coaches, 2 cabs)
-Equip the Downeaster (8 coaches, 2 cabs)

Still you would have 12+ cabs surplus. And the entire Amfleet set could go east. Plus whatever you want to do with the Horizon fleet.

The Midwest states have gone their own way by purchasing the Siemens equipment. Even if Amtrak bought the Gallery cars, they aren’t going to direct them to the Midwest to backup the Ventures without charging a premium. They’d more likely use them for new services, or existing services where they provide the equipment. Amtrak is charging Illinois a hefty premium to use Superliners on the Carbondale trains - otherwise they’d have had to accept a speed reduction that could have impacted ridership. That’s a pretty busy corridor. The state wants the Superliners gone as soon as possible as much as anyone.

lordsigma12345 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 9:47 am The Midwest states have gone their own way by purchasing the Siemens equipment.

I understand that. What management doesn't seem to understand is that, as it stands, neither the national system nor the midwest corridors are capable of functioning in a state of good repair. There are simply too few cars to even attempt to run the trains, and there not enough cars on order at this time to change this problem.

Instead of problem solving, they're moving deck chairs on the Titanic by creating this idiotic Floridian. If X cars are requird to run the system, and right now there are 75% of X available, moving Y cars from one train to another or combining the trains probably wont do much to change 75% of X.

Tadman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 8:38 am All very valid points. But a new passenger car (siemens venture) is $2.7m and 2-3 years out. One of those gallery cars can probably be bought for scrap, so figure $25k. You probably need COT&S and other refurb, so $20k more. Maybe they go wild and setup a long term refurb program where these cars get interiors suited to 4-8 hour rides. According to news sources it was $28mil/450 cars last time this happened, so $62k/car.

Looks like all told, for less than $100k up front and maybe $130-150k total, (times 65 coaches and 25 cab cars), you have stainless steel cars ready to roll within a few weeks.

What could you do with those 90 cars?

-Add 3 axle count cars to 8 midwest-CN consists (24 cars)
-Equip the entire Hiawatha set (8 coaches, 2 cabs)
-Equip the future Mobile train (8 coaches, 2 cabs)
-Equip the Flyer (8 coaches, 2 cabs)
-Equip the future Duluth train (8 coaches, 2 cabs)
-Equip the Downeaster (8 coaches, 2 cabs)

Still you would have 12+ cabs surplus. And the entire Amfleet set could go east. Plus whatever you want to do with the Horizon fleet.

Before I cue the "screaming nooooo" scene from The Office, first, someone define COT&S for me please. Thanks. With that said...

Seriously, the gallery cars? The ones that you still have to walk up to get to the "lower" level? Those cars?

There are only two things that I can think of with those cars: Selling them completely for scrap and not bothering with any sort of construction, or rebuilding the whole mess into knock-off Superliners or Surfliners. I'm going to skip describing my very low opinion on them since getting on the VRE trainset during an Amtrak Train Day. The second will save you some cash on the rebuild since you're rebuilding at the frame level and making them ADA compliant w/o external hardware for once in their life... but may still be too expensive.

I'm for having some Gallery cars for museum pieces, but that's it. Melt down the rest and recycle the spoils.

That said... folks have to remember, the primary goal of the Floridian plan was to accommodate having one of the East River tunnels be taken offline for rebuild work. They had this study in hand that folks in Chicago wanted to go to Miami et al by train. And they had the shortage of Superliners.

Cue the meme of "Coincidence? I THINK NOT!"

I think having that caused Amtrak to completely rethink it's trainset consists on a national scale for once, and jumped on it. I mean, if they had the equipment to switch the Capitol Limited down to Viewliner sets, wouldn't they have done it already?

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 11:09 am I mean, if they had the equipment to switch the Capitol Limited down to Viewliner sets, wouldn't they have done it already?

But they did not have enough Viewliner/Amfleet 2 sets to do so. The Silver Star needed 4 Viewliner/Amfleet 2 sets, and the Capital Limited needed 3 Superliner sets. Just changing the Chicago to DC to Viewliner/Amfleet 2 sets would have needed 3 more sets. Hence, a total of 7 sets for both trains. This combination of the two trains into one, the Floridian, only requires 5 sets, just one additional Viewliner/Amfleet 2 set. Why 5 instead of 7? Because they dropped the DC to NYC leg the Silver Star had been doing.
My point is, Amtrak did not have enough single level train sets to do the equipment change only on the Capital Limited earlier. But they do with combining the Capital Limited and Silver Star into the brand new Floridan train.