Amtrak Borealis: fka Empire Builder 2nd Daily Frequency Chicago - St Paul

superbad wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2024 7:53 pm The same could be down with Northstar sets. Don't they have quite a few sitting around? I know one proposed run on the Borealis route is what I presume with be a and AM train to Saint Paul from LaCrosse. A Northstar set could be used for that.

Those Northstar BBD coaches were planned to do St.Paul to St. Cloud, which is only 77 miles and on-par with what's running in New Mexico.

I could see something to Mankato or Eau Claire running with BBD's, but 133 miles to St. Paul to La Crosse would probably not be nearly as tolerable.

It was just over a month ago that Amtrak announced June passenger totals.

I know the normal pattern is that Amtrak releases such data all at once for the entire system about 35 days after month's end. But the Borealis is new and WE'RE ALL REALLY CURIOIUS!!!

Isn't that reason enough?!?

Just joking. I don't expect them to release info early again this month, but I am very curious, so I was hoping.

I guess that's another question.. what commuter rail equipment can be used with Amtrak Cars? Another question about BBD cars and front runner distances.. aren't there some Metrolink lines that run well past the 90 mile mark? on June numbers, from being a regular on Borealis I'd expect them to be higher from observation. From some passengers I've talked to the Borealis has become a model of transportation for getting to the MSP airport,MKE, MDW,and ORD since it is a reliable train.

west point wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2024 8:23 pm Remember HEP on Metra runs backward to Amtrak's. It takes a special cord to transition from one to another. That is why we never see a Metra loco pulling an Amtrak train and vice verses.

But there's got to be a couple of these cords at Beech Grove, Bear, or 16th street, and Fedex does offer overnight delivery. For that matter rewiring the plugs might take less time than shipping such a cord.

superbad wrote: ↑Sat Aug 10, 2024 10:30 am From some passengers I've talked to the Borealis has become a model of transportation for getting to the MSP airport,MKE, MDW,and ORD since it is a reliable train.

Really? Its a pretty long ride (probably an hour) on the Green Line from St Paul Union and then a transfer to the Blue LRT to get to MSP. I have only ridden the Borealis once, but I am not sure I would have enough confidence in it to book a MSP flight within 3 hours (or more) of scheduled arrival at St Paul Union.

But yea, the MKE connection is solid.

Agree, I've tried that transfer before and it's not great. If you're going to do it, taxi from SPUD to MSP is the way to do it as the Blue Line takes forever. If you take rapid transit, that means you go 45 minutes due west to downtown Minneapolis including some street running, then change trains and go 30 minutes southeast to the airport. Supposedly it's a 15 minute cab ride.

https://www.startribune.com/travel-amtr ... /601113951

We took weekend trips to Red Wing and La Crosse on new Amtrak Borealis


We rode the new, on-time Amtrak train service for jaunts to historic Red Wing and fun La Crosse, Wis.

The recent launch of Amtrak’s Borealis, a second train between St. Paul and Chicago, evoked the midcentury golden age of Midwest train travel — when the dueling Hiawatha and Zephyr behemoths barreled down the Mississippi River Valley at top speeds of more than 100 miles per hour.

I was excited, yet wary of Amtrak’s 21st-century record of running the existing Empire Builder train more than two hours late. But there was adventure ahead, history to explore and no time to sit on my hands.
...

Borealis up about 5% July: over June

Westbound - 356/day
Eastbound - 330/day

Annualized, that's 250,000 riders, which is quite good, but the upward trend is more significant, I think. Trains are selling out between Milwaukee and MSP some Fridays and Sundays, which should help average ticket prices.

Not sure this is yet strong enough to set an example for other states. I'm interested to see what college riders do for this train now that school has started.

I chalk some of that increase up to stories in the press about the new train driving some curiousity seekers.

When will we see data that includes how many people didn't ride the Builder in the market because of the corridor train?

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Remember, Amtrak removed one coach from the Seattle section of the EB about a month after Borealis began. My guess, and only a guess, is that coach had been used mainly for local passengers between Chicago and St. Paul.

The coach drop was mainly driven by the need to add one to the Southwest Chief according to Amtrak. They seemed to imply that they would have preferred to keep it if possible given they are trying to build up this corridor, but that getting one on to the Chief was more critical than having four coaches on the Builder (given that the Borealis is also running) and with the current on the ground realities it was impossible to add one to the chief without taking it from somewhere else.

For what it's worth, the Empire Builder seems to have had significantly stronger ridership this July than last. But also a 2% decline in revenue.

Cumulative Totals
June 2023 - riders - 243,500; revenue - 36.5
July 2023 - riders - 280,300; revenue - 44.8
July only - 36,800 riders and $8,300,000

Cumulative Totals
June 2024 - riders - 274,000 revenue 40.8
July 2024 - riders - 316,100 revenue 48.9
July only - 42,100 riders and $8,100,000

The Empire Builder ridership has been growing at roughly that rate, as rail usage continues to recover from the pandemic, so this is not necessarily a sign that the Borealis is helping the Empire Builder by making trips in the corridor more attractive. But there are hints. The decline in revenue per passenger suggests that the growth in Builder ridership was mostly over relatively short distances.

There is certainly no evidence the Borealis is cannibalizing Builder riders.

ryanwc wrote: There is certainly no evidence the Borealis is cannibalizing Builder riders.

No, but with that data, there's a good argument that it might be cannibilizing revenue.

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