614 to Port Jervis again?

The numbers "614" around NJT's shops are like "1361' is to Steamtown.....although "142" is another curse word around NJT as well....

No, NJT hasn't forgotten, although there was some pride in keeping watch on the "tea kettle" when it sat safe and secure in the NJT engine house for a few years. Not too many passenger RRs could say they had a steamer on the property. They did show off the loco and were proud of it when it was being "stored" by NJT.

NJT has not had good luck/encounters with steam engines over the past 10 years or so, IMO, its going to take a minor miracle to get NJT to agree to anything steam any time soon....

...but then again...it is the railroad......

workextra wrote: may be more inclined to allow the NKP 765 to run the water gap trains for Steamtown one year, If so, Maybe a special can be arranged for a trip in conjunction with NJT , DL, and Steamtown to run a all steam powered train from Hoboken to Scranton and back. Possibly involving an over night in Scranton.

You really think that is possible??? I'd be more inclined to believe NS will run it for employees only, but it will be a trip probably more along the lines of Binghamton to Croxton, especially if they want to use it on a OCS... I just say this because I keep reading NS won't open up any trains to the public with this program they are doing.

NS has forgotten that the line from Binghamton to Croxton exists for the past 10 years or so! Only recently have they got some cloudy memories back of what used to be and what could be possible in the future. They'd actually need some qualified crew members if they wanted to run a steam engine over a line... and right now they'd probably have a hard time finding employees in the area to actually ride the train. Maybe sit trackside at Wernersvile sometime and you might have better luck?

Just a refreshers from my memories.

The 614 trips didn't make any money. At the end even the group doing the tickets sales took their portion of the fee before the 614 group got their money because they were afraid of not getting paid. The last trips were far from sell outs.

NJT was owed 10s of thousands. The 614 was actually put up for auction by NJT to pay the back bills. My father went to the auction. None of the bids came in higher than the reserve, so no sale. I am unsure how the engine was "re-patriated" from NJT, but I would assume the outstanding debt was paid off in some manner.

Would one or two trips be sell outs? Possibly, but if you were to run it every weekend for a month or more, it won't make money.

All that said, the 614 needs over a million dollars of work, as noted by Mr. Roland elsewhere, and is currently stuffed and mounted. I haven't heard anything about the new Greenbriar service he was promoting either other than the cars needed serious additional work to conform to current passenger car standards. Since then there have been no updates.

cjvrr wrote:Just a refreshers from my memories.

The 614 trips didn't make any money. At the end even the group doing the tickets sales took their portion of the fee before the 614 group got their money because they were afraid of not getting paid. The last trips were far from sell outs.

NJT was owed 10s of thousands. The 614 was actually put up for auction by NJT to pay the back bills. My father went to the auction. None of the bids came in higher than the reserve, so no sale. I am unsure how the engine was "re-patriated" from NJT, but I would assume the outstanding debt was paid off in some manner.

Would one or two trips be sell outs? Possibly, but if you were to run it every weekend for a month or more, it won't make money.

All that said, the 614 needs over a million dollars of work, as noted by Mr. Roland elsewhere, and is currently stuffed and mounted. I haven't heard anything about the new Greenbriar service he was promoting either other than the cars needed serious additional work to conform to current passenger car standards. Since then there have been no updates.

I wondered as well how the 614 ended up back in Mr. Rowlands hands, but IIRC, the Reading and Northern had something to do with it, as I know it was stored out in Port Clinton for a long time. Thats where it went after it left NJT. I thought the RandN "bought" it from NJT, and then maybe Rowland got it from the RandN?

I don't know, it doesn't really matter, but there were a lot of different factors I think which caused problems with the 96/97 trips, mainly the installation of Cab signals on the Main/Bergen lines after the fatal NJT accident in 1996 in Secaucus. As far as I know, most of the additional work that was needed (and the subject of the payment dispute) was due to the installation of cab signals on the 614. I know that a regular control stand was put in as well for a diesel MU operation, I don't know if it was done at that time, or it was just easier to do it when they were installing the cab signals, etc. or it was done at another time. But either way, NJT put a lot of time and manpower into the loco, and then kept it for several years in storage in the engine house at the MMC.

I think the whole thing was a series of unfortunate, kind of un-related events. I was very happy to see the loco in Hoboken NJ several times during that time period, but I didn't get to ride behind it tho, unfortunately....

Realistically if NJT were to welcome a steam trip the engine would probably be the 765 or one of the Steamtown engines.
I would be nice if a deal could be worked out with NS and the owners of the berk to send it to Hoboken for a weekend fan trip. opened to the public and NOT part of NS program. Either way I highly doubt that would happen.
I don't see the 614 coming back on line for some time. The J Class 611 has a greater chance at a 3rd life long before the 614 gets into a shop.
Anyhow I'll believe it when I see it.
Just post the information to secure tickets when the time comes.

workextra wrote:Realistically if NJT were to welcome a steam trip the engine would probably be the 765 or one of the Steamtown engines.
I would be nice if a deal could be worked out with NS and the owners of the berk to send it to Hoboken for a weekend fan trip. opened to the public and NOT part of NS program. Either way I highly doubt that would happen.
I don't see the 614 coming back on line for some time. The J Class 611 has a greater chance at a 3rd life long before the 614 gets into a shop.
Anyhow I'll believe it when I see it.
Just post the information to secure tickets when the time comes.

Realistically I think NJT would welcome a steam trip if they didn't have to do a thing except dispatch the train, and have an NJT pilot crew on board and run right over the territory, and be here one minute and gone the next.... Other than that, I don't think they would be too thrilled....too much drama in recent years with tea kettles in NJT land.....

cjvrr wrote: haven't heard anything about the new Greenbriar service he was promoting either other than the cars needed serious additional work to conform to current passenger car standards. Since then there have been no updates.

Supposedly it is supposed to be up and running by July. Or at least that is what they are still advertizing....

but...let's take a look at the whole thing.

Work stopped late last year, and all of the shop workers were laid off, because there were problems with the car designes. Ross said that it was due to "over regulation" of the FRA, but yet there are plenty of P.V. cars out and running....that are FRA complaint. Must be able to make them compliant or they wouldn't be running.

Trains Magazine reports in January this year (2012) that

trains magazine wrote:the future of the Presidential Express may be in doubt due to capacity problems on the Buckingham Branch railroad, a problem also affecting plans to make Amtrak's Cardinal (which also serves White Sulphur Springs) a daily train.

And all of the planning Ooops aside. How many people are going to really want to pay the fares that start at $650.00 per person and go up from there? Not enough to merrit running every day 11 months a year as they are telling everyone they are going to do.


I agree with Jtgshu. Certain people have ruined foreign steam on NJT for a while. Kind of like they did on UP. There is a reason why UP will no longer allow any private operators to run steam on their railroad.....

The 614 was in Clifton Forge Va.

http://candoheritage.org/

It was cosmetically painted into the Greenbrier Express paint scheme and was supposed to be moved to the Greenbrier Resort in White Sulpher Springs WV, as a static billboard/advertisement for the train. CSX would not agree to letting Ross Rowland operate the 614 on their line so his plan is currently to use diesels.

Not sure of the status of the work on the train at this time.

On March 2 2012 Ross Rowland informed Trains Magazine that he hoped to be back to work on the equipment after layoffs .

http://trn.trains.com/Railroad%20News/N ... pring.aspx

steamer69 wrote:

cjvrr wrote: haven't heard anything about the new Greenbriar service he was promoting either other than the cars needed serious additional work to conform to current passenger car standards. Since then there have been no updates.

Supposedly it is supposed to be up and running by July. Or at least that is what they are still advertizing....

but...let's take a look at the whole thing.

Work stopped late last year, and all of the shop workers were laid off, because there were problems with the car designes. Ross said that it was due to "over regulation" of the FRA, but yet there are plenty of P.V. cars out and running....that are FRA complaint. Must be able to make them compliant or they wouldn't be running.

Trains Magazine reports in January this year (2012) that

trains magazine wrote:the future of the Presidential Express may be in doubt due to capacity problems on the Buckingham Branch railroad, a problem also affecting plans to make Amtrak's Cardinal (which also serves White Sulphur Springs) a daily train.

And all of the planning Ooops aside. How many people are going to really want to pay the fares that start at $650.00 per person and go up from there? Not enough to merrit running every day 11 months a year as they are telling everyone they are going to do.


I agree with Jtgshu. Certain people have ruined foreign steam on NJT for a while. Kind of like they did on UP. There is a reason why UP will no longer allow any private operators to run steam on their railroad.....

with regard to the $650 fare, take a look at what it costs to stay at the Greenbriar Resort. $650 is not out of line, may even be the smallest percent of the total bill.

And there are that many people going there that they can support an extra $650 per person, 1 trip a day, 11 months a year and break even? A couple of cars worth of people won't break them even....that have to be selling most of that train out every day.

steamer69 wrote:And there are that many people going there that they can support an extra $650 per person, 1 trip a day, 11 months a year and break even? A couple of cars worth of people won't break them even....that have to be selling most of that train out every day.

Don't know, but mid level hotel rooms in Washington, DC typically are priced in the $400 per night range during much of the year, and the hotels sell out.

If NS could partner with TVRM, and now Fort Wayne, why can't NS partner with Reading and Northern and help rebuild 2102? R&N could rent out 2102 to NS while they use 425 for their own excursions on their own tracks. Just an idea. The Reading is now a part of NS's heritage like Nickel Plate and Southern were. I can just see it, a mainline excursion from Port Clinton to Harrisburg and Philly through a partnership between Reading and Northern and NS. However, R and N's open window coaches couldn't be used on NS, because they're friction bearing. NS would have to rent or use their own compliant coaches like they were using for 21st Century Steam. The BM&R coaches (when it was BM&R) were used on BM&R/Conrail excursions in 1985, 1987, and 1988 because Conrail didn't mind the friction bearings, and the interchange ban wasn't in effect yet. Back then you could have excursions from Temple, and South Hamburg to Harrisburg, Philly, etc. I don't even think the RCT&HS could have a diesel powered excursion from Hamburg to Harrisburg or Philly because the Reading Blueliner open window coaches are also friction bearing, and thus prohibited on NS south of Temple. What will it take to have a mainline public steam excursion in NJ and PA again? Other than Reading and Northern or Steamtown. Guess the only way now is if NS decides to bring the 630, 4501, or 765 to PA in the future and run an excursion such as Harrisburg to Bethlehem, or Harrisburg to Renovo, or Harrisburg to Front Royal, VA, or Bethlehem to Reading or Harrisburg, or Bethlehem to Newark, NJ. I would probably ride an NS 21st Century Steam excursion in the future if they had an excursion boarding somewhere in eastern PA.

We NEED some long distance mainline steam excursions in the Northeast again. Who's going to do them? NS could, such as with the 765 or 4501 provided the logistics of getting the locomotives to PA or NJ. Reading and Northern won't run excursion trains on other railroad's tracks anymore, especially NS because most of their coach fleet is friction bearing, which are no-no's today on class 1 railroads. Steamtown sometimes runs a mainline excursion on CP up to the Nicholson Tunkhannock Viaduct, but only once in a blue moon with permission of CP and the round trip is only 40 miles. If Port Jervis can happen again, great, I never rode it the first time, but there are big hurdles to overcome with 614 down in WV and needing expensive work to run again, plus CSX is currently hostile to steam, even dead in tow moves. NS, Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society, and Ross Rowland are the only big steam operators I know of that could pull off a mainline class 1 steam excursion in the northeast again. Another thing, would NJT permit older open window coaches with friction bearing trucks on a steam excursion train on it's tracks? I know most class 1 freight railroads won't anymore. They used to in the 70's and 80's.

All someone needs to do is find a nice size eninge (like 630), throw a control box in it and cab signals, and you'd be all set. Maybe even start a private company to lease the engines, do all the work on them, and then contract with the railroads to run. There is precident out there for this idea right now.....we in the North East just need to get off our butts and either put up or shut up. If a group were to come out like this, the only way to make it reality would be for the railfans to put their money where their mouth is. That would be the big thing.