3.5 cent per litre petrl tax to pay for rail electrification

as part of a regional gas tax for auckland .
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.c ... d=10436038

Hmm, this seems to be reasonable, as the extra funds will go to both road and rail projects (Ms Fitzsimons is dead wrong insisting the regional tax should only be used for transit - that's unfair and exactly the way to piss off all but a handful of people - she also seems a bit dippy, whining about 'dirty diesels' - I know that's an logic facally 'argument against the person', but come-on, its lame). This way, the funds go to benefit both road and rail, that's the best compromise, and will get the electrification project done (or at least going)
Looks like the increase (around $NZD 6.00 - about $USD 4.40) would be buried in the current 'noise' of gas prices rises around here in NY, where prices have increased from $2.50 to $3.00/US gal since the election (or...$USD 7.50 average fill-up).
Wondering - can we assume that 'regions' in NZ do not currently levy a fuel tax, as most if not all states in the US have long levied some or another such tax? And BTW, what is the official term for political subdivisions in NZ - Austrialia & the US have their states, Canada their provinces, the UK counties - NZ has regions?

David Benton wrote:as part of a regional gas tax for auckland .
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.c ... d=10436038

As much of NZ's electricity comes from non-carbon emitting sources this is a very sound idea.

I wish NZ would follow Iceland into changing to a hydrogen economy, phasing out entirely the use of oil.

One of my annoyances is that in Britain there are far too many diesel trains running under the wires. Twenty years ago British Rail was careful to change locomotives when a diesel train reached a wired part of the route. This never happens now.

Sir Ray , we have regional councils , they cant normally impose sale axes . all their revenue comes from property rates ,and user levies . they are primarily concerned with water resources , transport ,land use etc .i'e they don't provide education ,social servies etc .
Fitzsimons is pretty levelheaded , her diesel comment is probably to catch the eye of supporters etc .
while it is fair to say the tax should fund road as well , it is also fair to say road is already well funded from national tax sources .
But overall it is a good step .

David Benton wrote:Sir Ray , we have regional councils , they cant normally impose sale axes . all their revenue comes from property rates ,and user levies . they are primarily concerned with water resources , transport ,land use etc .i'e they don't provide education ,social servies etc.

Hmm, perhaps NZ is too small for the n-level 'layer cake' hierarchy found in other countries.
For Example:
US = Federal -> State -> County/Parish (NYC = Boros) -> Town/City/Boro.
OK, so there are regional difference (like Counties tend to be weak in the Northeast US, while Towns & Cities are strong, but in the South Counties tend to be the main provider of services, while township are more or less non-existant), but still.

Hmm, I think the UK and Canada (and probably Oz) have similar layouts, albiet with more overlap or different arrangements (e.g. Canada, below Provinces, seems to sometimes have counties, sometimes regions, sometimes just 'municipalities').

So, is a city like Blenheim on the South Island located in a region or district (Marlborough district?) - for this exercise Substitute any medium size city or village you are more familiar with.

For a US example, using Rockville Centre (a village not far from my home)

USA
NY State
Nassau County
Hempstead Township
Village of Rockville Centre
All are independant taxing authories with their own governing bodies, albiet at the Town/Village/County level certain services are provided by different authorities to prevent duplication of services (like a village may contract out policing to the county, or sanitation to the Township).

OK, not too helpful with the NZ line eletricification, but for example you can have a situation where NY State will support the 3rd Mainline Track on the LIRR, while Hempstead township & Floral Park village oppose it - does that occur in New Zealand?

In Britain only Central government has the power to levy and set taxes. Local government (counties, districts, cities) has some freedom in theory to vary property taxes - Council Taxes on private property and business rates. In practice they are severely limited by central government and most of their revenue comes from a central government grant. They have no other source of income.

Only central government has power over petrol tax. London has the Congestion charge which is a kind of toll for entering the central area. It has raised some money mainly for buses and the underground. It has also made the roads run more freely, especially the buses.

Some other cities are considering a congestion charge. Singapore was probably the first city in the world to have one, at least 20 years ago.

The British government is considering a nationwide road charge, which will depend on congestion at the time. It will obviously be fiendishly difficult to collect without universal satellite tracking of every vehicle, which sounds a lot like Big Brother (Orwell's version).

Rail fares are rising much faster than the cost of motoring and I can't afford to travel by train these days, unless it's a book ahead cheap offer. Probably the government is doing what it has often done in the past - allow fares to rise to choke off demand, instead of investing in more capacity.

It's amazing to go to France or Belgium and find affordable fares. In Paris the RER network is paid for by a tax on employers, on the grounds that they want to have their employees arrive on time. In Britain the City financiers want Crossrail - a RER equivalent - but don't seem willing to pay for it.

perhaps if i explained my own area , that is the best way . (the problem for me is i was overseas (in Georges neck of the woods ), when the local govt system changed drastically in nz ).
I live in paeroa township (around 3000 pop ) , which is a ward of the Hauraki district council .before the 1980's , paeroa would have had its own borough council , complete with mayor . now there is amayor and council for hauraki district council , but paeroa itself has 2 representaives on the council that we alone vote for .every other town and county in the district has the same represenation .the total poulation for the hauraki district is probably 20 -30 000 .
Hauraki district is in the Waikato province , covering a fair part of the middle north island . Thus it is covered by the waikato regional council . regional councils were created in the eighites , i dont think there was a system of provincal govt bfore that , there were regional catchment boards , based on the catchent areas of major rivers .
the regional councils are responsible for river management , land use , and transport . things that are best planned on a regional level . they only get revenuue form land rates, the ability to levy a fuel sales tax is what he govt is proposing to give auckland regional council . the catch is , the govtwill be expecting Auckland to use this tax to fund alarge chunk of the rail and road improvements . whereas auckland wants the govt to fund most of it . And so why it is unlikely that aicklandregional council will oppose what the govt wants , there will be alot of negotiating over who pays for what . then there is the oil companies , last time a regional fuel tax was tried , the oilcompanies refused to restrict it to Auckland and wellington , instead they raised fuel prices nationwide to cover the fuel sold in auckland and wellington .

OK, NZ seems to have Regions->Districts and then wards? (Heh, very Chicagoland like)

David Benton wrote: the ability to levy a fuel sales tax is what he govt is proposing to give auckland regional council . the catch is , the govtwill be expecting Auckland to use this tax to fund alarge chunk of the rail and road improvements . whereas auckland wants the govt to fund most of it . And so why it is unlikely that aicklandregional council will oppose what the govt wants , there will be alot of negotiating over who pays for what .

Well, if the taxing authority is given to Auckland for a specific purpose, I don't see an issue - use the tax revenue to fund the roads and rail improvements as much as possible. Was Auckland planning to raise the tax levy, have the National government continue to fund the transportation services while they used the money for booze & hookers or something?
Redirecting tax funds supposedly dedicated for one purpose (not necessarily booze or hookers) toward an unrelated purpose is one of the top US taxpayer aggravations, and often leads to your party getting voted out in the next election.

Then there is the oil companies , last time a regional fuel tax was tried , the oilcompanies refused to restrict it to Auckland and wellington , instead they raised fuel prices nationwide to cover the fuel sold in auckland and wellington .

Huh - this makes no sense - in the US if the fuel tax is for a given (US state), then the companies can legally only collect it in that state, end of story. Otherwise heavy fines will result, even in the current US oil company-dominated federal government. Why should this be any different in New Zealand.
This, BTW, is a continuing saga between NY & NJ, as New Jersey charges lower fuel taxes than NY, and it can be up to 15 us cents/US gal cheaper across state lines, and so whenever possible people fuel up in NJ. This seems to only apply in Northern Jersey, prices in Trenton seemed to be almost the same as average NY prices.

the issue for auckland is not diversion of funds , but how high to set the fuel tax (govt gives them authoriy upto 10 cents ) . so for eg , the govt would like auckland to set the tax at 10 cents , in order to pay for 80 % of the cost of the rail improvements .(my fiqures for eg ) . auckland would like to set it at 5 cents ,to pay for 50 % , the govt paying for the other 50 % . some compromise is likely and some fiqure in between will be set .
the fuel companies simply raised their prices everywhere to cover the 2 cents a litre tax imposed in Auckland last time . so say a million litres was sold in Auckland requiring $ 20 000 to be paid in tax , the oil company just sold 2 million litres nationwide to cover it . as the govt doesnt control fuel prices , it cant stop them doing this

looks like the law will be in todays national budget .
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/sto ... d=10440188

Funny how Ireland can't do anything like this. They're going with "intercity DMUs" and basically restricting speeds to mid-1950s levels. 125 mph they advertise as "TGV-like", in spite of the fact that it was commonplace in the latter half of the 20th century.

Back on topic: How does this fare for the longer-distance passenger railway travel in NZ? Looks like the electrification is being limited to suburban rails. Anything that these articles is not stating?

Nope , long distance passenger rail is not subsidised at all . hasnt been for the last 15 - 20 years . Theyre running patched up 50 year old carriages at 50 km/h average speeds .If it wernt for a large amount of tourists , these services would not exist .
See the overlander thread for more details .
As for Irish trains , i wonder if the distances are long enough for real high speed trains ?.

Irish Chieftain wrote:Funny how Ireland can't do anything like this. They're going with "intercity DMUs" and basically restricting speeds to mid-1950s levels. 125 mph they advertise as "TGV-like", in spite of the fact that it was commonplace in the latter half of the 20th century.

Back on topic: How does this fare for the longer-distance passenger railway travel in NZ? Looks like the electrification is being limited to suburban rails. Anything that these articles is not stating?

As I understand it the mainline is electrified but not the suburban networks, thus loco change is needed. It is not surprising that the freight company would like to abandon the mainline electrification.

Extending it to the suburban network might save it.

Some more Irish electrification might be a good idea - though not the 1500v DC they have in Dublin - a shortsighted design choice.