Bergen-Shore Express

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NIMBYkiller
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Bergen-Shore Express

Post by NIMBYkiller » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:00 pm

A friend of mine stumbled upon this the other day:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/103688802 ... d29Oslh6xY
https://www.nytimes.com/1986/06/08/nyre ... XXMbyBslSA

Anyone have any additional info on this? The departure times seem about an hour and change too early in my opinion, but does anyone know how ridership was? This seems like something that absolutely should exist today.

ryanov
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Re: Bergen-Shore Express

Post by ryanov » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:52 am

Plenty of previous threads on here about this.
|=| R. Novosielski |=|

EuroStar
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Re: Bergen-Shore Express

Post by EuroStar » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:04 am

Even if there were enough engineers and equipment to run something like this the demand simply is not there to justify running this on top of the regular weekend schedule which already allows for this sort of trip (albeit at the expense of extra time to make the Secaucus connections). NJT is not (and should not) be in the business of providing an express beach train for a few Bergen county residents. Unless there are 400+ people who are willing to make the trip every weekend, the train cannot even hope to break even and a cash strapped agency cannot afford to waste its resources on something like this.

jamesinclair
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Re: Bergen-Shore Express

Post by jamesinclair » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:08 am

EuroStar wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:04 am
Even if there were enough engineers and equipment to run something like this the demand simply is not there to justify running this on top of the regular weekend schedule which already allows for this sort of trip (albeit at the expense of extra time to make the Secaucus connections). NJT is not (and should not) be in the business of providing an express beach train for a few Bergen county residents. Unless there are 400+ people who are willing to make the trip every weekend, the train cannot even hope to break even and a cash strapped agency cannot afford to waste its resources on something like this.
It's sad to see how the transit discussion in this country has fallen to the point that connecting the most populous part of the state to an incredibly popular leisure destination immediately gets this kind of response.

I wonder how many roads we've built that pass the "break even" test.

njt/mnrrbuff
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Re: Bergen-Shore Express

Post by njt/mnrrbuff » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:30 am

The Bergen Express won’t be running anytime soon. In fact, until the crew and equipment shortage gets straightened out, don’t expect even more express trains to the beach. Hopefully next summer, we can see the weekend shore express trains return.

One observation that I want to point out for when the weekend shore express trains from Hoboken ran. For those people connecting to them at Newark Penn Station from New York Penn Station-there was often a 25-30 minute wait between trains. With more people wanting to board the train in NYP as opposed to Hoboken, it was unfortunately cost effective to discontinue the express trains from Hoboken. If people were taking the shore express to the beach from Newark after switching there from New York City, that 25-30 min of layover time at Newark Penn would have been better off spent on a local train. Of course, thanks to the ALP45DP units, there is now direct express NYP service from the beach, but presently, it only runs during the week.

Roadgeek Adam
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Re: Bergen-Shore Express

Post by Roadgeek Adam » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:03 am

jamesinclair wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:08 am

It's sad to see how the transit discussion in this country has fallen to the point that connecting the most populous part of the state to an incredibly popular leisure destination immediately gets this kind of response.

I wonder how many roads we've built that pass the "break even" test.
Keep in mind the fact that if we're going to provide Bergen people, who have tons of money, a trip to the shore by rails when shafting commuters who need it daily, we're going to have to provide it for all. That's a losing approach.

The Bergen Shore Express was a good idea in the 1980s. That was the 1980s. This is 2019, about to be the 2020s, we need to focus on improving what we have an expanding service to the urban areas where the populous is going. Giving one part of the populous access to the Jersey Shore isn't going to work.
...they are solid plastic, so don't settle for imitation.

NIMBYkiller
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Re: Bergen-Shore Express

Post by NIMBYkiller » Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:03 pm

ryanov wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:52 am
Plenty of previous threads on here about this.
I have never seen anything about it before, so my apologies.
EuroStar wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:04 am
Even if there were enough engineers and equipment to run something like this the demand simply is not there to justify running this on top of the regular weekend schedule which already allows for this sort of trip (albeit at the expense of extra time to make the Secaucus connections). NJT is not (and should not) be in the business of providing an express beach train for a few Bergen county residents. Unless there are 400+ people who are willing to make the trip every weekend, the train cannot even hope to break even and a cash strapped agency cannot afford to waste its resources on something like this.
You could be right, you could be wrong. I'd like to see a study of what potential ridership is. With the advent of Secaucus Junction and the track-re route that came with it, this can operate either via the PVL, Main, or Bergen. It should be fairly easy to compile the EZ Pass data for GSP exits serving NJCL communities and see where/what time the majority of cars are entering the turnpike/parkway and that would at least give you a place to start the next level of research. If there is in fact enough demand to run a train then this is absolutely something that should be operating. Outright saying there's no demand, NJT should serve this purpose, blah blah blah is akin to LIRR having never been operating late night service and saying bah, LIRR shouldn't run service for people to get drunk in the city. Yet look at how packed those trains are.

I don't think anybody would be stupid enough to suggest robbing Peter to pay Paul, especially for something like this, so the idea of screwing commuters to provide leisure service is not even to be discussed (even though it happens every summer on the LIRR). The manpower shortage is very real and NJT/State of NJ badly needs to get its * together, but it doesn't mean this doesn't merit at least looking into. Just as bad is saying well if one part of the state gets it then every part of the state should get it. Also not true. If existing visitor trends to the shore indicate a high enough number of visitors from a certain region to merit a train, then that area should get it. If the numbers don't justify your area getting the train, you don't get the train. It's a very simple concept.

njt/mnrrbuff
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Re: Bergen-Shore Express

Post by njt/mnrrbuff » Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:19 pm

That is true-if the projected numbers don't add up for the train, then you aren't getting it. Depending on where people are coming from in Bergen County if they want to connect to a train to the coastal towns of Monmouth and Ocean Counties, they might switch at Secaucus Junction. They might also take a NJT bus(the 76 bus runs between Hackensack and Newark Penn Station). People probably want to see the loop get built at Secaucus not just for the Bergen-Shore Express but to enable one seat rides from Midtown Manhattan to North Jersey. I hate to say this but having the loop at Secaucus doesn't make sense. Being that it's proposed to get built just west of the transfer station, trains heading from Midtown Manhattan to Bergen County will have to pass the platforms on the upper level and then loop to serve the lower level. Instead, I think it would be better to just have elevators and escalators going from the upper level platforms to the lower level platforms without having to go into the station waiting area. This would not only be great for people who are traveling from Bergen County to Midtown Manhattan, but it would benefit those heading from Bergen County to the beach. Nobody likes to transfer all the time but for every cluster of steps and escalators eliminated, that would help passengers change levels faster.

CentralValleyRail
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Re: Bergen-Shore Express

Post by CentralValleyRail » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:23 pm

EuroStar wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:04 am
Even if there were enough engineers and equipment to run something like this the demand simply is not there to justify running this on top of the regular weekend schedule which already allows for this sort of trip (albeit at the expense of extra time to make the Secaucus connections). NJT is not (and should not) be in the business of providing an express beach train for a few Bergen county residents. Unless there are 400+ people who are willing to make the trip every weekend, the train cannot even hope to break even and a cash strapped agency cannot afford to waste its resources on something like this.
But when the weather was good, so good they had to run 2 trains. OP makes a valid point. While NJT won't be doing anything but cutting service for at least another 5-10 years it WAS a good service and IS a good idea. But the problem is NJT management is non-existent.

EuroStar
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Re: Bergen-Shore Express

Post by EuroStar » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:13 pm

I was not around here back then and had no idea that sometimes they ran 2 trains. Was that because they picked up lots of passengers in Newark who had come from New York? I do not see the demand for even one from the Bergen County now though. I am under the impression that over the years people have started lugging more and more stuff when they go to the beach: beach chairs, umbrellas, food, water, sunscreen, etc. With kids the list doubles. I just don't see the typical relatively well off suburban type in Bergen County leaving their car at home for the fun experience of lugging all these things to the beach for a day trip at the cost of $10+ per adult each way. Did people just bring in a towel for the day back then?

NIMBYkiller
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Re: Bergen-Shore Express

Post by NIMBYkiller » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:22 pm

njt/mnrrbuff wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:19 pm
That is true-if the projected numbers don't add up for the train, then you aren't getting it. Depending on where people are coming from in Bergen County if they want to connect to a train to the coastal towns of Monmouth and Ocean Counties, they might switch at Secaucus Junction. They might also take a NJT bus(the 76 bus runs between Hackensack and Newark Penn Station). People probably want to see the loop get built at Secaucus not just for the Bergen-Shore Express but to enable one seat rides from Midtown Manhattan to North Jersey. I hate to say this but having the loop at Secaucus doesn't make sense. Being that it's proposed to get built just west of the transfer station, trains heading from Midtown Manhattan to Bergen County will have to pass the platforms on the upper level and then loop to serve the lower level. Instead, I think it would be better to just have elevators and escalators going from the upper level platforms to the lower level platforms without having to go into the station waiting area. This would not only be great for people who are traveling from Bergen County to Midtown Manhattan, but it would benefit those heading from Bergen County to the beach. Nobody likes to transfer all the time but for every cluster of steps and escalators eliminated, that would help passengers change levels faster.
You don't need the Secaucus loop for this to be possible. The track connection this train used to use still exists.
EuroStar wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:13 pm
I was not around here back then and had no idea that sometimes they ran 2 trains. Was that because they picked up lots of passengers in Newark who had come from New York? I do not see the demand for even one from the Bergen County now though. I am under the impression that over the years people have started lugging more and more stuff when they go to the beach: beach chairs, umbrellas, food, water, sunscreen, etc. With kids the list doubles. I just don't see the typical relatively well off suburban type in Bergen County leaving their car at home for the fun experience of lugging all these things to the beach for a day trip at the cost of $10+ per adult each way. Did people just bring in a towel for the day back then?
You've clearly never taken the A train to the Rockaways on a summer Saturday or Sunday. For the Bergen-Shore express, you have people making day trips and you also have people going for the weekend. A friend of mine runs the bus service that operates between NYC and Long Beach Island NJ and I drive it quite often. LOTS of people who go for the weekend bring just a suitcase and a backpack (you see the same with folks riding LIRR to the hamptons). He also has a lot of them who ride out of NYC Friday evening because they work in the city but on Sunday they'd rather he had a bus to points in northern NJ because that's where they live.

CentralValleyRail
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Re: Bergen-Shore Express

Post by CentralValleyRail » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:39 am

EuroStar wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:13 pm
I was not around here back then and had no idea that sometimes they ran 2 trains. Was that because they picked up lots of passengers in Newark who had come from New York? I do not see the demand for even one from the Bergen County now though. I am under the impression that over the years people have started lugging more and more stuff when they go to the beach: beach chairs, umbrellas, food, water, sunscreen, etc. With kids the list doubles. I just don't see the typical relatively well off suburban type in Bergen County leaving their car at home for the fun experience of lugging all these things to the beach for a day trip at the cost of $10+ per adult each way. Did people just bring in a towel for the day back then?
The train didn't stop in Newark, went direct from Harmon Cove to Long Branch.

Most of that stuff was rentable at affordable rates (compared to the gaouging you see today). Napsack was about all anyone really needed, and a case of beer.

pumpers
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Re: Bergen-Shore Express

Post by pumpers » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:11 pm

NIMBYkiller wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:22 pm
You don't need the Secaucus loop for this to be possible. The track connection this train used to use still exists.
Actually, 2 connections.
First, there is a "wye" in Jersey City (40.741917, -74.068417), going back to the Delaware, Lackawanna and Western RR in the late 1800s, https://www.google.com/maps/place/40°44 ... 74.0684205
where an inbound Main LIne/Bergen Cty Line/Pascack Valley Line train, having passed Secaucus Jct. station a few miles before, can go outbound on the Morristown line (as if it were coming from Hoboken) with out any reverse moves.
Then, where the Morristown line (ex-Lackawanna) crosses under the NorthEast Corridor (ex PRR) in the Meadowlands, there is a (relatively modern) connection ("Waterfront connection"?, 1990?) that lets the outbound (westbound) Morristown line train get on the westbound NEC to Newark Penn Station (and then to Rahway and then the Coast Line to Long Branch, etc.)

TDowling
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Re: Bergen-Shore Express

Post by TDowling » Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:57 pm

Orange and Rockland also could conceivably gain rail access to the shore if this ever were to materialize. I doubt if the MTA bureaucrats would jump on that, however. A quick transfer in Secaucus should suffice for them as well as for Bergen County commuters.

A better idea would be to increase funding for advertising the existing shore trains as well as utilizing the dual modes for more one seat rides to Bay Head.

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