Penn Station turnaround for Empire Connection?

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Tadman
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Re: Penn Station turnaround for Empire Connection?

Post by Tadman » Fri May 10, 2019 10:17 am

I remember a discussion we had here about ten years ago where someone asked why empire trains don’t continue to WAS like Keystone trains continue to New York. It was pointed out that because the trains enter from the south on the empire connection that they’d have to turn or use a cab car. The concept is still interesting as Keystone trains turn at PHL.

I also suggested that they run the Sunnyside loop to turn without a cab car, and Noel freaked out (to the point of rage) that passenger couldn’t ride a train around the loop because “it’s just not done”.
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ExCon90
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Re: Penn Station turnaround for Empire Connection?

Post by ExCon90 » Fri May 10, 2019 1:52 pm

I think the problem there is that in the time it would take to occupy two slots in the East River tubes, plus going around the loop (at what--15 mph or so?) plus two station stops at NYP they could reverse at the platform and the train could be on its way even with the step-by-step process now required for reversal. Two scheduled station stops would be necessary because passengers from Albany would be seriously annoyed if they were required to go around the loop before getting off, or conversely passengers boarding destined to Philadelphia would be annoyed to say the least by having to get to NYP in time for the Albany arrival and then go around the loop before heading westward. And with no thoroughfare tracks (without platform) at NYP that's two platform occupancies whether or not the train makes two stops.

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rohr turbo
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Re: Penn Station turnaround for Empire Connection?

Post by rohr turbo » Fri May 10, 2019 2:35 pm

Remember in 1995-96 the Adirondack was a through train from WAS through NYP and onto the Empire Corridor to Rensselaer and Montreal. I assume by that time the train was Amfleet and an engine change (electric to dual mode and attached to the opposite end) happened in NYP...anyone can confirm this?

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?grou ... &item=0010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Penn Station turnaround for Empire Connection?

Post by STrRedWolf » Sat May 11, 2019 4:31 pm

Backshophoss wrote:Penn is LIRR overrunning 3rd rail all the way to Sunnyside Yard.
Okay, that explains using the diesel once outside the tunnel to Penn. Metro-North is under-running.
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Re: Penn Station turnaround for Empire Connection?

Post by R36 Combine Coach » Sat May 11, 2019 5:27 pm

rohr turbo wrote:Remember in 1995-96 the Adirondack was a through train from WAS through NYP and onto the Empire Corridor to Rensselaer and Montreal. I assume by that time the train was Amfleet and an engine change (electric to dual mode and attached to the opposite end) happened in NYP...anyone can confirm this?
http://www.timetables.org/full.php?grou ... &item=0010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Must been a temporary replacement for Montrealer. (The Vermonter is actually a day version of the Montrealer, initially with a connection to MTL at St. Albans)
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JimBoylan
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Re: Penn Station turnaround for Empire Connection?

Post by JimBoylan » Sun May 12, 2019 12:11 am

I rode that Adirondack from Philadelphia to Montreal and the Montrealer was also running that day. Most of the seats faced backwards out of Philadelphia. We changed engines and ends in Penn Station, New York.

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Re: Penn Station turnaround for Empire Connection?

Post by jp1822 » Sun May 12, 2019 10:37 am

JimBoylan wrote:I rode that Adirondack from Philadelphia to Montreal and the Montrealer was also running that day. Most of the seats faced backwards out of Philadelphia. We changed engines and ends in Penn Station, New York.
This was a neat operation at the time, but the Adirondack was meant to use the Turboliner equipment so that it could:

- stretch it’s speed capability. Turboliners were rated for 110 mph plus, but only achieved 110 mph for a short stretch south of Albany on the Hudson River line. The NEC allowed the units to really get out there and move/openup.
- change directions pretty seamlessly when coming into NYP (control units/cabs on both ends).
- have half seats facing one way and the other opposite - give or take.

AMtrak experimented with this “reverse move” at NYP with the Adirondack. This was also the early 1990s when the Empire Connection had just debuted at NYP, so Amtrak and the State of NY were “experimenting.” It was hoped that more trains would follow (being turboliners mostly), but it never materialized. Amtrak had to make the NYP operation simple for these run-through Operations. There was no way that regular operating crews were going to be hooking up and unhooking locomotives on a regular basis in the depths of NYP with third rail active etc. But substitution of equipment had to be made from time to time that did put the crew on the ground...

There’s no way capacity would allow these trains to continue on south to Washington at present.

Nice to see the bus connection - day time service up the west coast of Lake Champlain. Perhaps a preview of the Ethan Allen Express to come!

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Re: Penn Station turnaround for Empire Connection?

Post by StLouSteve » Mon May 13, 2019 8:03 am

Put a diesel on one end and an electric on the other and use train line equipment. New crew in NYP anyway so switching ends not a big deal. You would be hauling the weight of a loco with you but worth it not to tie up Penn with an engine change.

My understanding is wire does extend far enough on Empire Connection to clear tunnel and then switch to diesel.

Amtrak’s Fall Foliage excursion did this.

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Tadman
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Re: Penn Station turnaround for Empire Connection?

Post by Tadman » Thu May 16, 2019 12:13 pm

That idea makes way too much sense and so it's probably not going to be done.

I've always like a similar idea. Straight electric third rail locomotives that are semipermanently coupled to existing Genesis power. Because they can't be uncoupled outside the shop, the two can have bus cables for both traction power and third rail feed, with third rail shoes on both locomotives. Now there's no third rail gap problems. There's no need for a second engine on this relatively flat route. They can be split apart and rematched in the shop if something goes wrong.
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Re: Penn Station turnaround for Empire Connection?

Post by Railjunkie » Thu May 16, 2019 1:24 pm

Tadman wrote:That idea makes way too much sense and so it's probably not going to be done.

I've always like a similar idea. Straight electric third rail locomotives that are semipermanently coupled to existing Genesis power. Because they can't be uncoupled outside the shop, the two can have bus cables for both traction power and third rail feed, with third rail shoes on both locomotives. Now there's no third rail gap problems. There's no need for a second engine on this relatively flat route. They can be split apart and rematched in the shop if something goes wrong.


For less than a mile of third rail. Unless your talking about heading south to WAS. Then your Genesis will restrict the train to 110MAS. Going north why do you want to drag an electric all the way to Albany and points beyond, CN charges a BOAT LOAD of money for 69/69. Add another set of axles inspection of 2 locomotives and the extra fuel. Every year in rules class they harp on fuel conservation adding wont help the bottom line.

Yup thats a good idea.

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Tadman
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Re: Penn Station turnaround for Empire Connection?

Post by Tadman » Thu May 16, 2019 10:15 pm

CN is in Montreal, I don’t know why you’d have to run such power all the way. That said, with three position shoes, the E-mode could be useful in Metro North territory, too.

As of right now, a good solution has yet to be implemented.
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Re: Penn Station turnaround for Empire Connection?

Post by Railjunkie » Fri May 17, 2019 1:40 am

Tadman wrote:CN is in Montreal, I don’t know why you’d have to run such power all the way. That said, with three position shoes, the E-mode could be useful in Metro North territory, too.

As of right now, a good solution has yet to be implemented.
You wouldnt have to run an electric anywhere on the Empire corridor. Dual modes take care of that. A GE rep once told me if they ever did something like this again it wouldnt have shoes but pans for overhead.

Metro North dual modes only use third rail for GCT, just like Amtrak for Penn. Plus dual modes are restricted to 60mph while in E mode

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Re: Penn Station turnaround for Empire Connection?

Post by R36 Combine Coach » Fri May 17, 2019 2:32 am

Tadman wrote:As of right now, a good solution has yet to be implemented.
BBD could offer a third rail version of the ALP45.
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Tadman
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Re: Penn Station turnaround for Empire Connection?

Post by Tadman » Fri May 17, 2019 6:22 pm

Railjunkie wrote:
Tadman wrote:CN is in Montreal, I don’t know why you’d have to run such power all the way. That said, with three position shoes, the E-mode could be useful in Metro North territory, too.

As of right now, a good solution has yet to be implemented.
You wouldnt have to run an electric anywhere on the Empire corridor. Dual modes take care of that. A GE rep once told me if they ever did something like this again it wouldnt have shoes but pans for overhead.

Metro North dual modes only use third rail for GCT, just like Amtrak for Penn. Plus dual modes are restricted to 60mph while in E mode
I don’t see what that does other than make it heavier and more expensive. Third rail gear and controls don’t require nearly as complex of equipment. Just because a GE rep says so doesn’t mean they’re really going to do it. The railroad industry is the worst rumor mill ever.
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Re: Penn Station turnaround for Empire Connection?

Post by Railjunkie » Sat May 18, 2019 1:31 am

That comment was made over 15 years ago, GE still makin locos last I heard the Erie plant was sold. Anyway a dual mode is full of extra weight. Sure the third rail gear is light but the inverters to convert DC to AC not so much. There is much free space inside the car body as compared with a P42

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