Amtrak/LIRR Moynihan Train Hall

[Jishnu]

No way should HSR funds be used on anything but improving rail infrastructure directly related to train performance and reliability.

I agree. This is yet another case of the good Senator from New York trying to hijack money for inappropriate use. I hope that not a single penny goes to Moynihan project from the HSR or the Amtrak portion of the stimulus package. It is a project that only benefits the egos of New York state and city leadership, at considerable inconvenience to every day users. So let them find the money from their own pockets.

[PullmanCo]

I concur with that viewpoint.

[fredct]

I found a "Friends of Moynihan Station" website, which described a new "Plan B", which sounds more reasonable. More of a reworking of Penn Station with some expansion instead of a grand new station for its own sake. I highlighted one particular part of interest as well. I don't know if anyone has any more details on this "Plan B".

Plan B for Moynihan Station -- the plan articulated by Governor Paterson in September -- is still being worked out. Roughly, it involves:

- Gut-renovating Penn Station under the existing Madison Square Garden structure, to increase circulation space and improve pedestrian conditions;
- Adding one or maybe even two grand new station entrances - one on Eighth Avenue replacing the WaMu Theater, and the other mid-block between Seventh and Eighth Avenues (where the taxiway currently sits);
- Building new train hall in the eastern half of the Farley Post Office building;
- Building a three more platforms and five more tracks just to the south of Penn Station's existing platforms;
- Integrating the ARC terminal at 34th Street with the Moynihan Station complex, and planning the two hand-in-hand;
- Building more than 6.5 million square feet of private development in the area immediately adjacent to the station.

The Friends of Moynihan Station have advocated for all of the elements described above, as well as locating a new Congress Center in the western half of the Farley building.

[Jishnu]

Plan B for Moynihan Station -- the plan articulated by Governor Paterson in September -- is still being worked out. Roughly, it involves:

- Gut-renovating Penn Station under the existing Madison Square Garden structure, to increase circulation space and improve pedestrian conditions;
- Adding one or maybe even two grand new station entrances - one on Eighth Avenue replacing the WaMu Theater, and the other mid-block between Seventh and Eighth Avenues (where the taxiway currently sits);
- Building new train hall in the eastern half of the Farley Post Office building;
- Building a three more platforms and five more tracks just to the south of Penn Station's existing platforms;
- Integrating the ARC terminal at 34th Street with the Moynihan Station complex, and planning the two hand-in-hand;
- Building more than 6.5 million square feet of private development in the area immediately adjacent to the station.

The Friends of Moynihan Station have advocated for all of the elements described above, as well as locating a new Congress Center in the western half of the Farley building.

Ah yes, the good old Block 780 plan for NYP-South, which Amtrak apparently is also pushing of late. That grand plan includes one additional tunnel under the Hudson too to feed that NYP-South. Amtrak has actually specifically asked NJT to not block the path for such a tunnel, apparently.

Also I find the notion of integrating the NYPSE with Moynihan intriguing. How do you integrate two stations that are an Avenue and two street blocks apart and vertically 150' apart? Next someone will say why worry about Alt G. Just integrate the GCT and the NYPSE after all they are just a couple or three avenue blocks and 8 street blocks apart. Nothing that a good high speed travellator in a little tunnel under the street cannot handle Look at how RATP in Paris connects the two halves of the Montparnasse Bienvenue station or the two halves of Invalides station I must admit that those high speed travellators that require you tog et on the low speed one and then hop over to the high speed one is kind of neat

[Taborite]

Nothing that a good high speed travellator in a little tunnel under the street cannot handle

Well, it could work...probably not worth the cost, but it'd work.

[AFTower]

Here we go again!
http://www.ble.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=27581

NEW YORK — After months of negotiations — and years after it first pulled out of the project — Amtrak reached a preliminary agreement to move to an annex of Pennsylvania Station planned for the James A. Farley Post Office Building, state, federal and railroad officials announced on Sunday. The deal, whose specifics have yet to be finalized or released, would clear one of the biggest hurdles facing Moynihan Station, which was first proposed more than 15 years ago and has struggled ever since.

[Nasadowsk]

Oh god no.

Let that stupid idea sit where it belongs - in the trash can.

If they do ANYTHING to NYP, it should be a total tear down (to track level) and replacement, ON the existing site, with a new MSG above it.

The old Penn's gone (well, not really), it's been gone so long that only a bunch of wackos and foamers care about it anymore. It's been gone nearly as long as it stood.

Build a new station, designed for today's realities in traffic, and then build a new MSG (just as badly needed) above it.

Blowing a billion and a half to destroy a Post office next door, to 'recapture the glory' of a train station most folks never saw and don't care about anyway, is stupid.

While we're at it, why don't we tear down that 'modern, ugly, grotesque' building on 42nd and Park, and 'recapture the glory' of the original Grand Central Station?

NY state has no money. The feds have none, regardless of how fast they run their printing presses. There's tons of outstreteched hands. Sure the current Penn station sucks - mostly because of the insanely bad layout than anything else - but right now, there's no money out there to put a smiley face on it, and that's all the New Penn/Farely/MOYniHan station is...

[fredct]

Nasadowk, and in your grand plan, what do commuters & MSG-tenants do for the few years it takes to rebuild the entire site?


I have another question though... can someone explain to me the operational benefits of Moynihan Station project? Specifically I'm referring to this quote in the NYT article (which other articles have as well: "The project aims to expand capacity and create an eye-catching new entrance to Penn Station, which is now underneath Madison Square Garden and would be connected to the annex."
( source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/14/nyreg ... f=nyregion )

Since the tracks run east-west, and the Farley Building is just west of the existing Penn station, how will capacity be improved? Doesn't seem like they could add any tracks, or would they somehow add ones above or below the track existing level? Otherwise, sure you would have a second set of platforms (and it would certainly improve the passenger experience due to the extra concourse space), but you couldn't really more more trains, could you?

[Nasadowsk]

Nasadowk, and in your grand plan, what do commuters & MSG-tenants do for the few years it takes to rebuild the entire site?

You build around them. A royal pain? Yes. Will things be royally messed up for a few years? Yes. Will it be hard? Yes. But the reality is that something is going to HAVE TO BE DONE sooner or later. Could the post office be used as a temporary 'penn station' - maybe. Does it need to be 1.5 billion temporary? No.

I have another question though... can someone explain to me the operational benefits of Moynihan Station project?

You put a big smiley face on Penn station. That's it.

Since the tracks run east-west, and the Farley Building is just west of the existing Penn station, how will capacity be improved? Doesn't seem like they could add any tracks, or would they somehow add ones above or below the track existing level? Otherwise, sure you would have a second set of platforms (and it would certainly improve the passenger experience due to the extra concourse space), but you couldn't really more more trains, could you?

There's no way to improve capacity without rethinking and redoing the track level. The flow of people in the existing Penn is another headache, though - I've heard a few people suggest that the way to up train capacity at Penn might be to reduce the number of tracks, to get wider platforms.

And having a station on two levels is boneheaded. Transfers are a royal pain in Penn.

The current proposals don't address this. It's the 800 lb gorilla nobody wants to talk about seriously.

if you want a real logistics headache - wit until one of the automotive bridges around NYC needs replacement. And that day is coming in our lifetimes....

[neroden]

Nasadowk, and in your grand plan, what do commuters & MSG-tenants do for the few years it takes to rebuild the entire site?

I have another question though... can someone explain to me the operational benefits of Moynihan Station project?

(1) A waiting room large enough to actually hold the crowds.
(2) New passenger access to platforms from said waiting room.

It provides operational benefits for *pedestrian flow*. If you've ever been in the crowded maze under Madison Square Garden, which is handling several *times* the number of passengers it was designed for, you understand the problem.

It is quite bluntly for passengers. It doesn't change the number of trains or anything.

Oh, the Post Office is currently abandoned, basically; the Postal Service doesn't use most of it anymore and doesn't really want to use any of it. Accordingly, the Post Office won't be "destroyed", it'll be saved (imagine if it just sat, largely unused, for years... you can see where this is going).

Specifically I'm referring to this quote in the NYT article (which other articles have as well: "The project aims to expand capacity and create an eye-catching new entrance to Penn Station, which is now underneath Madison Square Garden and would be connected to the annex."
( source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/14/nyreg ... f=nyregion )

Since the tracks run east-west, and the Farley Building is just west of the existing Penn station, how will capacity be improved?

*Pedestrian* capacity. They're running on the brink of violating the fire codes as it is.

EDIT: Unfortunately I've never seen detailed plans for "Moynihan Station". I always assumed they'd add elevators and stairs directly from it to as many platforms as possible (which would certainly account for the billion dollars, and would be well worth it for passenger flow).

[DutchRailnut]

The whole Idea is to put a refurbished tent over same circus, it only moves the station away from the main stram of traffic and conveniences with trains still being on same old platforms.

[Nasadowsk]

EDIT: Unfortunately I've never seen detailed plans for "Moynihan Station". I always assumed they'd add elevators and stairs directly from it to as many platforms as possible (which would certainly account for the billion dollars, and would be well worth it for passenger flow).

I don't see how - few, if any, platforms actually extend under the Post office.

[hi55us]

The new Moynihan station is a project that NEEDS to get underway not just because of eclectic reasons, but because of operational efficiency. The lower level in NYP during rush hour looks like their is a major catastrophe, every night. People rushing to their NJT trains, People rushing to their LIRR&Amtrak trains. The zoo-like lines on the upper concourse, everyone in psny needs a solution to this and hopefully moynihan station will provide this. Good for Boardman and Schumer sitting down to discuss this problem.

[Jtgshu]

It would be great to have a grand entrance to NY and a "repurposing" of the Post Office, a much better entrance to the city than the low ceilings and missing ceiling tiles and exposed pipes and wires.

However, its not going to help too much with Pax flows. Most of the platforms don't go far enough west to even go under the post office, and the ones that do, would have some kind of entrance to the platforms on the west end, still putting a bunch of people in one spot, which is the same problem with the waiting room upstairs and the NJT and LIRR concourses. Everyone fighting for 1 set of stairs or escalators.

If the platforms that are shorter were extended (tracks 1 to maybe 7/8 for example) that is going to require MAJOR trackwork as the ladder tracks would need to be shifted really to the "open air" part, inbetween the post office above and the tunnel portals.

It just seems like its going to be a beautiful area and buliding, but with really really long walkways to get there.

[goodnightjohnwayne]

Granted, the current Penn Station lacks a monumental waiting room, but from what I've seen, modern commuters don't require such a facility. However, commuters do require ready access to the platforms, and that is the greatest weakness of the Moynihan station.

From the standpoint of Amtrak passengers, the waiting room issue was partially solved some years ago with the current arrangement, the only drawback of which is the lack of clean, safe restroom facilities for the exclusive use of Amtrak passengers, other than the Acela lounge. In many other ways, the proximity of the baggage check, ticket windows, and the secure seating area to the gates are all exceptionally convenient and well appreciated.

I'm not about to compliment the aesthetics of the current Penn Station, but I'm not a fan of the Moyihan station concept, as it might actually make the trains less accessible.

I also can't imagine why the Moynihan's name is still attached to the project. Most New Yorkers have long since forgotten Senator Moynihan, and those of use who do remember him never really understood much of what he tried to say due to his inarticulate, overly intellectual approach to every subject.