MN nose hatch and the tunnels

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

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DutchRailnut
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Post by DutchRailnut » Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:37 pm

Not yet and we hope we never have to use it, as originaly designed the Genesis would have been certain dead in tunnel for engineer incase of fire, Now he/she has fighting chance.
If you see fire you don't stop the train, you keep moving to keep flames and smoke behind you, you may make it out of tunnel (2.5 miles). you can reach the alerter from the hatch area so while train moves you start opening things up, if train makes it out of tunnel great for engineer and passengers, if not once it stops you drop hatch and get out.
It takes me less than 1.5 minutes to get out.
The New Haven/NYC both had agreement with BLE that a nose door be provided on engines, on old electrics the door for cab was in front and you got out over pony truck, on the later FL-9's there is nose door.
Mechanical dept. wanted to weld those shut for years but due to agreement no dice.
When MNCR was created the borrowed 4 E8's two from Amtrak and two from NJT, the NJT units did not have nose doors and were banned from leading into GCT within a week.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Noel Weaver
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Post by Noel Weaver » Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:37 am

I have a copy of the original agreement with Metro-North and the BLE at
the time and there was nothing in it about nose doors. It may have been
done after that but not before my departure from Metro-North in 1987.
The NJT E-8's were visitors to GCT during the 80's as I recall dragging a
bunch of them up to MO to turn on the wye as they could not go around
the loop.
The New Haven Railroad had no agreement regarding a nose door as the
jets did not have one that could be used by the engineer or fireman for an
escape and they were probably way more dangerous than the present
equipment is. The reason the jets were eventually barred from operation
into Grand Central Terminal was because one caught fire in the tunnel and
tied up the PM rush with a lot of problems.
I am not arguing that nose doors are not required today, only that in pre
Metro-North days, they were not.
Noel Weaver

DutchRailnut
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Post by DutchRailnut » Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:22 am

Noel I got the legal papers years ago from a former chief mechanical officer and they were forewarded to MNCR when the Genesis was purchased, its not in Employee agreement.
The agreement exist and is in MNCR's hands, unfortunatly I do not know if ACRE retained a copy.
So don't be so quik to didmis something as non existing.
The NJT E 8's still went to GCT but only as trailing units after MNCR was made aware of the agreement.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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train2
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MN nose hatch and the tunnels

Post by train2 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:05 pm

Reading all the discussion in other places about Amtrak needing to provide cab cars for its GE engines going into Grand Central, I was interested to know how that nose hatch on the MN works exactly. Does it have a ladder, fixed or rope type, to exit the engine? The hatch is fairly high from the ground so it mush have some unseen component.

I take it the GE units are fairly close to the walls of the tunnel, that seems obvious. Is it only in certain locations or the entire park Ave. tunnel system? My memory from riding it a number of years ago was it was open to more than one track. But I don't recall the entire design. What is the primary concerns with this? At what point are the tunnels down to a single track that exit would be the issue?

Backshophoss
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Re: MN nose hatch and the tunnels

Post by Backshophoss » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:26 am

The nose hatch is a NYFD requirement,needed for the track 3 and track 4,the single track tunnels into GCT, the Double track tunnel,tracks 1 & 2
are wide enough for side door escape,not the single track tunnels.
As for the Tunnels into NY Penn,all are just wide enough to allow side door escape.
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DutchRailnut
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Re: MN nose hatch and the tunnels

Post by DutchRailnut » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:35 am

The Nose hatch is a Union requirement from way back, both New Haven and NYC unions objected to engines without front/rear access when locomotives were being planned. both track 3 and 4 are single track tunnels with about a foot clearance to wall.
In case of engine fire or derailment there is no safe way to get out of train on sides, besides smoke, you would either have to get by a few huge electrical conduits or climb down on top of third rail that may or may not have been shut off or verified.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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DutchRailnut
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Re: MN nose hatch and the tunnels

Post by DutchRailnut » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:37 am

and yes the escape hatch has a ladder and a heavy duty rope to climb down to coupler level.

see: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=27636&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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DutchRailnut
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Re: P32AC-DM - hatch at the nose ???

Post by DutchRailnut » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:53 am

no and neither are 100 000 fire escapes on buildings , but its a requirement.
No one puts lifeboats on a ship and expects them to be used.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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blockline4180
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Re: MN nose hatch and the tunnels

Post by blockline4180 » Wed May 02, 2018 9:55 am

Keep hearing word that Amtrak is in the process of creating the nose hatches on their engines as we speak, or is this false?? If it's false then I guess every train will have to use the damn MARC cabs in the lead as advertised this summer.
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GirlOnTheTrain
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Re: MN nose hatch and the tunnels

Post by GirlOnTheTrain » Wed May 02, 2018 9:55 am

Not false, have seen photographic evidence on Facebook.
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blockline4180
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Re: MN nose hatch and the tunnels

Post by blockline4180 » Wed May 02, 2018 9:56 am

Good.
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