Acela Replacement and Disposition Discussion

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BandA
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Re: Acela Replacement and Disposition Discussion

Post by BandA » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:18 pm

Everyone assumes the AX-2 sets are going to have more cars.

gokeefe
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Re: Acela Replacement and Disposition Discussion

Post by gokeefe » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:57 pm

They will be the same length. The power units are more compact. 30% more passengers. Should make for an interesting platform experience at NYP. Nothing world ending just exciting from time to time ...

That being said ... It's 8 more trainsets than the current 20 ... Something is either getting cut or being moved ...
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east point
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Re: Acela Replacement and Disposition Discussion

Post by east point » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:26 pm

BandA wrote:Everyone assumes the AX-2 sets are going to have more cars.

That assumption comes from Amtrak's statement that the AX=2s would be able to add cars in the future. The option is there in the contract. However we probably would expect that there would be too much change in technical specs by 10 years to justify just additional cars ?. Maybe new cars would go all on one loco set with cars removed to other train sets ? Or another possibility if for whatever reason one or more locos become unusable then its cars from that train would be added to other trains.

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Re: Acela Replacement and Disposition Discussion

Post by mtuandrew » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:03 pm

BandA wrote:Everyone assumes the AX-2 sets are going to have more cars.
They will have 7 articulated cars from the get-go, as specified in the contract. Mr. O’Keefe also rightly points out that the power units are about half the length of the AX-1 power cars, which allows the AX-2 to fit in the current Acela barns.

Wave goodbye to every Regional that doesn’t serve off-Corridor destinations! It looks like precious few non-Acelas will even serve destinations north of NYP anymore, excepting the Vermonter and the Virginians. A forced transfer is one way Amtrak can drive up prices and pay for the pretty new Lionel Flyers, after all.

Acela150
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Re: Acela Replacement and Disposition Discussion

Post by Acela150 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:28 pm

BandA wrote:Everyone assumes the AX-2 sets are going to have more cars.
I don't know where you heard that they won't.. It has been widely publicized that the new HST will have 7 passenger cars. 2 Power Cars making it a total of 9.

electricron
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Re: Acela Replacement and Disposition Discussion

Post by electricron » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:23 pm

I would like to point out that each Acela car is around 85 feet in length while the new Avelia cars will be around 6o feet in length. While can not find the specific car length for an Avelia car, I can find it for an AGV car; each AGV intermediate car is 17.3 meters in length, which converts to 56 feet 9 inches.

Some cutting of each car’s length has to be done to keep axle weight lower than the maximum allowed, putting 2 cars under 4 axles vs 8 axles means a 50% decrease in axles. Achieving a 50% reduction in weight is very difficult with just material choices alone, some cutting in mass is also required, therefore the shorter car length.

So each passenger car is going to be 25 to 30 feet shorter than an Acela car. Some simple math follows;
Acela without power cars = 6 x 85 feet = 510 feet
Avelia without power cars = 9 x 60 feet = 540 feet.

That’s only 30 feet more, requiring each new power car to be 15 feet shorter than the older Acela power cars.
I don’t know where some found they will have just 7 passenger cars, I couldn’t find a link after a quick search that stated any. Videos I’ve seen seem to have just 7 cars.
Therefore, 540 feet / 7 cars = around 77 feet per car.

Never-the-less, these new Avelia Liberty cars will be shorter in length than 85 feet of the old Acela cars.

NeedhamLine
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Re: Acela Replacement and Disposition Discussion

Post by NeedhamLine » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:40 am

Acela150 wrote: I don't know where you heard that they won't.. It has been widely publicized that the new HST will have 7 passenger cars. 2 Power Cars making it a total of 9.
Every mention of the Avelia Liberty in Amtrak and Alstom materials that I've seen has referenced nine passenger cars and two power cars, with the ability to expand to twelve passenger cars. For example, see https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-n ... t-corridor" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That would make sense, given that the AGV cars (on which these are based) are about 1/3 shorter than the current AX-1 cars. The extra passenger capacity likely comes from shorter power cars (so the total length of passenger cars is a bit longer) and only one vestibule per car instead of two.

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Matt Johnson
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Re: Acela Replacement and Disposition Discussion

Post by Matt Johnson » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:56 am

NeedhamLine wrote:The extra passenger capacity likely comes from shorter power cars (so the total length of passenger cars is a bit longer) and only one vestibule per car instead of two.
And I believe less cafe car space. In fact, I'm sure there's less cafe car space, as even if they devote an entire car to food service that's still less than the current Acela cafe car. The Alstom promo vid gives a glimpse of the cafe design.
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Matt Johnson
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Re: Acela Replacement and Disposition Discussion

Post by Matt Johnson » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:57 am

And in fact, even with the shorter cars, it looks like the cafe will not get an entire car.
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Re: Acela Replacement and Disposition Discussion

Post by jonnhrr » Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:27 pm

mtuandrew wrote:Wave goodbye to every Regional that doesn’t serve off-Corridor destinations! It looks like precious few non-Acelas will even serve destinations north of NYP anymore, excepting the Vermonter and the Virginians. A forced transfer is one way Amtrak can drive up prices and pay for the pretty new Lionel Flyers, after all.
Curious as to why you think there won't be any Regionals that don't serve off-corridor. Also if you force a transfer won't that drive people away and cause Amtrak to have to reduce fares to fill seats?

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Re: Acela Replacement and Disposition Discussion

Post by Ridgefielder » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:52 pm

jonnhrr wrote:
mtuandrew wrote:Wave goodbye to every Regional that doesn’t serve off-Corridor destinations! It looks like precious few non-Acelas will even serve destinations north of NYP anymore, excepting the Vermonter and the Virginians. A forced transfer is one way Amtrak can drive up prices and pay for the pretty new Lionel Flyers, after all.
Curious as to why you think there won't be any Regionals that don't serve off-corridor. Also if you force a transfer won't that drive people away and cause Amtrak to have to reduce fares to fill seats?

Jon
I assume that what he's trying to say is that the AX-1 equipment plus the new AX-2 will replace the Amfleet + ACS64 consists on the Regionals that don't extend into Virginia or to Springfield, MA.

Realistically that can't happen until Mystic, CT and Westerly, RI get high levels.

electricron
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Re: Acela Replacement and Disposition Discussion

Post by electricron » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:12 pm

Ridgefielder wrote:
jonnhrr wrote:
mtuandrew wrote:Wave goodbye to every Regional that doesn’t serve off-Corridor destinations! It looks like precious few non-Acelas will even serve destinations north of NYP anymore, excepting the Vermonter and the Virginians. A forced transfer is one way Amtrak can drive up prices and pay for the pretty new Lionel Flyers, after all.
Curious as to why you think there won't be any Regionals that don't serve off-corridor. Also if you force a transfer won't that drive people away and cause Amtrak to have to reduce fares to fill seats?

Jon
I assume that what he's trying to say is that the AX-1 equipment plus the new AX-2 will replace the Amfleet + ACS64 consists on the Regionals that don't extend into Virginia or to Springfield, MA.

Realistically that can't happen until Mystic, CT and Westerly, RI get high levels.
Who knows when that may happen, it could happen next year if money appeared to do so magically.

QJust do the math guys, 28 longer train sets replacing 20 over a corridor that is limited to the number of trains running on it. Assuming the same number of HSR train sets are in maintenance and parked in a yard somewhere as back-ups, there are 8 more HSR train sets in service meaning there are 8 less regional trains running through to Boston.

Of course, those same extra 8 train sets could be turning in New York to increase the number of HSR train sets in service south of NYC, allowing the same number of Amfleet trains running north of NYC to Boston ——which I believe I have read is Amtrak’s plans.

I don’t have a fool proof crystal ball to predict the future, so either scenario could be the case 3 to 4 years from now.

superstar
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Re: Acela Replacement and Disposition Discussion

Post by superstar » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:20 pm

electricron wrote:
QJust do the math guys, 28 longer train sets replacing 20 over a corridor that is limited to the number of trains running on it. Assuming the same number of HSR train sets are in maintenance and parked in a yard somewhere as back-ups, there are 8 more HSR train sets in service meaning there are 8 less regional trains running through to Boston.

Of course, those same extra 8 train sets could be turning in New York to increase the number of HSR train sets in service south of NYC, allowing the same number of Amfleet trains running north of NYC to Boston ——which I believe I have read is Amtrak’s plans.

I don’t have a fool proof crystal ball to predict the future, so either scenario could be the case 3 to 4 years from now.
Amtrak said at the time of the order that the frequency additions would be for hourly service north of New York and half hourly south during peak hours. I seem to remember coming up with three Regional frequencies to Boston that would be replaced with Acelas, assuming it's hourly between 5:00 AM and 5:00 PM, which are the current boundaries for Acela departures, and there are no more slots obtained over the drawbridges. I think that left two or three BOS-WAS regionals if you keep the current slate of BOS-Virginia frequencies. It might make more sense, if possible, to cut a couple of the Virginia ones back to NYP and trade them for WAS/NYP-BOS trains, I can't imagine that many people, comparatively speaking, travel all the way from Virginia to New England.

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Re: Acela Replacement and Disposition Discussion

Post by Backshophoss » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:16 pm

Amtrak could move the Boston Regional trains to the Inland route via Springfield-Worcester to free up slots for the Acela II's
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bostontrainguy
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Re: Acela Replacement and Disposition Discussion

Post by bostontrainguy » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:19 pm

Probably the fate of Acela I will be similar to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2NnDn0KmUw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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