CMSL into Tuckahoe, maybe Winslow

Discussion relating to the PRSL

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Jtgshu
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Post by Jtgshu » Sun May 23, 2004 9:10 am

The best thing in the world that could happen to a union is expansion.....namely in the form of expanded service, new lines, new jobs and opportunities for its members.

Also working for NJT, but not a member of the BLET, but rather the UTU, my union has kept its mouth shut on many issues "and did things the way NJT wanted to, for the public good"- "take one for the team" - and we have lost jobs. The faregate inspectors at SEC (one could even argue EWR as well) is our work, but we're not up there doing it. The River Line is a farce, and NJT's new thing is this "design, build, operate" where they are out sourcing work to these companies, when they have the staff, in rail and infrastructure departments, to do the exact same thing......we (the staff at NJT - MOW, B and B, T and E, revenue, etc, etc) run hundreds of miles of railroad a day, and move hundreds of thosands of people, but NJT is paying a seperate company to run one line. There are other issues too.....

TR has every right to bring in union politics because its a big issue, and a necessary component of things. Its not "bragging", its looking at ALL the possibilites in a realistic view, and although its nice to have pie in the sky ideas, if your gonna have an intelligent, realistic discussion, not looking at and discussing and considering the effects and opinions of unions and employees is simply ignorant and foolish.

.....his union has already had people laid off, and my union continues to have rumors of layoffs. NJT and the state of has little to no money, and whatever little money is available, should be spent on worthwhile projects, which would get the biggest bang for the buck, both passengerwise, companywise and employeewise (unionwise).
On the RR, "believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see"
John, aka "JTGSHU" passed away on August 26, 2013. We honor his memory and his devotion to railroading at railroad.net.

JDFX

Post by JDFX » Sun May 23, 2004 11:07 am

Theres a difference between compromising for the benefit of all, versus just getting walked all over.

Fact is, there is no commuter service on this line.

Fact is, NJT will NEVER run commuter service on this line.

Since this is the case, why object someone else, mainly the CMSL, from trying to operate the line in that capacity?

The Unions are not losing jobs if the CMSL runs the service because there was no jobs there to lose, to begin with...

If this was a case, like Guilford Rail pulled with the Springfield Terminal shell game, and NJT actually was running the service already, then I would be equally pissed.

But since there is no service there to begin with, and that NJT will not ever offer such service, why waste union coffers, fighting over something that you guys will never get anyway...

Would you Union folks rather the line be scrapped?

And while we are at it, lets scrap the CMSL too, since his operation is "Jobs" entitled to NJT employees only...

Ask me, it sounds like a case of "If I can't have it, No one else can either"...

TR-00

Post by TR-00 » Sun May 23, 2004 11:53 am

Actually, JD, it's not that simple. Some of our members worked this line before the great grab took place. They were promised that if passenger service ever returned, they would still have prior rights on the line, and that is backed by the feds.

If NJT decides to "create jobs" by allowing passenger service to begin on the line, the jobs rightfully belong to our members.

If CR or the SRNJ wants to haul freight to and from Tuckahoe, fine, no objections in the least. But the idea of adding a subsidized passenger service to a line with little or no potential is a waste of tax dollars that are getting harder and harder to find. Throw one more sponge in the puddle, and it's going to dry up.

Spend the money here, and somewhere else, major cuts will have to be made. Somewhere else, our people will lose jobs. Needed service will be cut, and for what? Your pleasure of seeing RDC's in service again?

Tony is no fool. He knows he stands to make a decent profit off of freight service, and I doubt that he would be anxious to blow it on a service that will run at a loss. Is he hoping the State will bail him out on such a venture? I don't know, and I'm not willing to risk the money to find out. He is smart enough to know that his passenger service is seasonal, and always will be. Otherwise, trains would run year round.

We hope he does well with the freight venture, and becomes a stronger and self sufficient operation. But we don't want to see him, or any other private operator supported by tax dollars.

Elwood

Post by Elwood » Sun May 23, 2004 1:43 pm

Let's put politics and unions aside for the moment, and discuss the operation of the CMSL. Once the freight service begins on the CMSL, which from what I understand will begin by the end of the year, I think it is very possible that their business will expand. It only makes sense that the reestablishment of rail operations down that line would bring such. If Conrail leaves that cuts the CMSL off from frieght service. It seems logical that if that were so, either the CMSL or SRNJ would pick up rights/lease/ownership of Beesleys at least to Tuckahoe. My guess is that if Conrail owns it, they are going to want to be rid of the line, and they will try and sell it. If NJT owns the line, they will want to lease it. It only makes sense that one way or the other, either the SRNJ or CMSL is going to gain rights/ownership of the tracks in the near future.

Elwood

TR-00

Post by TR-00 » Sun May 23, 2004 2:05 pm

It makes more sense that CR will continue to run WPCA 51 to Tuckahoe if the business that is claimed is there.

JJMDiMunno
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Post by JJMDiMunno » Sun May 23, 2004 11:05 pm

TR-00 wrote:It makes more sense that CR will continue to run WPCA 51 to Tuckahoe if the business that is claimed is there.
Yes, it's likely CR will continue to run freight to Tuckahoe. But, those carloads will have to be pretty high in numbers for COnrail to wish to continue running down there...remember, that's about 24 miles of rail to maintain...pretty much 24 miles of rail they don't like to maintain now, and they have over 7000 carloads of coal moving down there each year. Also keep in mind that just before the Conrail split between CSX and NS, Conrail pretty much had all of these lines up for sale. They don't own the Beesley's south of Winslow, but that sale notice for the rest of the lines pretty much showed their lack of interest here. I'm sure CSX and NS aren't nearly as interested in our "little" operation down here as they claim to be on paper sometimes...

Remember...that would pretty much just be a interchange job...and 24 miles is a relatively long distance to interchange cars...like I said, the numbers better be pretty high...
~Mike DiMunno
CSAO Beesley Point Secondary - MP 8.69 (Magnolia, NJ)
Moderator: Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines :: Penn Central

Jtgshu
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Post by Jtgshu » Mon May 24, 2004 2:53 am

Look at the Southern Sec from Red Bank to Lakehurst.......Conrail still runs all the way down there from Browns once or twice a week for sometimes only 10 cars. I don't think it would be unreasonable for them to do the same on the Beesley Sec.
On the RR, "believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see"
John, aka "JTGSHU" passed away on August 26, 2013. We honor his memory and his devotion to railroading at railroad.net.

JJMDiMunno
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Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:55 am
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Post by JJMDiMunno » Mon May 24, 2004 1:55 pm

Jtgshu wrote:Look at the Southern Sec from Red Bank to Lakehurst.......Conrail still runs all the way down there from Browns once or twice a week for sometimes only 10 cars. I don't think it would be unreasonable for them to do the same on the Beesley Sec.
Yeah, good point...

However, I still just don't see the logic...they wouldn't really be making that much more money off interchanging at Tuckahoe instead of Winslow. In fact, when you do the math, I'm sure it would come up to an annual net loss...unless CMSL is going to get around 7000 cars a year...

It would make the whole CA-51 job easier just making interchange at Winslow for the whole thing instead of running all the way down to Tuckahoe (they can't get all their work done as it is now, and they don't even run to TUckahoe yet)...there are no local customers between Winslow and TUckahoe except for that little team track at BART, which receives a car once in a blue moon...

There are local customers on the SOUS between BANK and Lakehurst, right? I'm not that familiar with that line...

Initial plan is for CA-51 to run all the way to Tuckahoe, once CMSL freight service starts. However, only time will tell if that will become permenant...a number of different scenarios may take place if CA-51's inability to get that work finished becomes frequent...

I can't speak for Conrail, or it's parent companies of CSX and NS, but keeping that 24 miles of railroad just for interchange dosen't seem to make much logical sense, when they could just move the interchange point north 24 miles and eliminate all that running and time on CA-51...

I'm just basing my thoughts above on Conrail's process in the past, and current ways of thinking...take for example, the Salem Running Track. DelMonte is the only customer at the end of the CSAO operated portion right now. SRNJ also interchanges there, but DelMonte is the only local customer on that line up to that point. DelMonte is closing by the end of July of this year. It is very likely that after DelMonte closes, Conrail will seek to give up the Salem Runner all-together...with SRNJ being the most likely candidate to take over. And that's only 10 miles of railroad, between Woodbury and Swedesboro. Now, we're talking about 24 miles of railroad on the Beesley's, which will be serving pretty much the same purpose (interchange only) after the plant closes. What Conrail chooses to do with the Salem Runner will most likely give us an idea of what to expect from the Beesley's situation after the power plant is gone...
~Mike DiMunno
CSAO Beesley Point Secondary - MP 8.69 (Magnolia, NJ)
Moderator: Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines :: Penn Central

SemperFiSep11

Post by SemperFiSep11 » Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:49 am

I think it's funny how our ever harding working union members claim that any passenger rail job in the state should be thiers "rightfully".

With the bang-up job they're doing on NJ Transit I can really understand thier cocky attitude...

Yeah, unions do some good things now and again but for all that good they've managed to drive millions of jobs overseas. Bravo! Maybe we should outsource NJ Transit to Pakistan. SOme of those guys speak better English than the conductors I run into sometimes...

TR-00

Post by TR-00 » Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:50 pm

Thank you for allowing that unions have "done some things right". perhaps your are talking about the improvements that unions have forced (yes forced) in the areas of worker safety? Maybe you are talking about "quality of life" issues such as paid vacations, better health care, job security, equal work equal pay, or the fact that the unions have been and remain in the forefront of allowing every person regardles of race, sex, age or belief to work for the same benefits and pay in the same jobs.

I find it hard to believe that anyone can be so mis-informed to believe that unions are the cause of jobs being sent overseas. To find the real reason for that (and to find the reason that uninspected Mexican trucks will soon inhabit our highways) you need to look no further than the moron who inhabits the White House.

I'm curious to hear about the "bang up job" the unions are doing on NJ Transit. I'm sure that we are running the show, and the management people have nothing to due with items such as spending the tax dollars, scheduling the trains, buying inferior equipment, failure to spend on maintenance and on and on. When was the last "job action" on NJ Transit? It must have been before the four years that we worked without a contract in order to keep the system running.

Yes, I see your point, unions are the root of all evil. I won't argue the point because it is difficult to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

SemperFiSep11

Post by SemperFiSep11 » Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:36 pm

By allowing that the unions had helped out I was referring specifically to the things you refrenced. I applaud work safety and vacations and livable wages because everyone in the world does.

As per the comment about the moron in the White House...I suppose that is a matter of opinion. Not voting for him myself.

As for the bang up job the union guys are doing on transit I ask you to look no further than 98% of any Transit bus, trolley, or train I have ever ridden. The great majority of the people your union represents are boorish on thier best day and criminally stupid on thier worst. When asked questions it is rare for them to give anything close to a decent and gramatically correct response. When asked to do a relatively simple job, they roll thier eyes, sigh, and mutter in a language foreign to this planet. I'll give you the 2% of Transit workers who have impressed the heck out of me with thier service, coutesy, and knowledge. However, the protectionist attitude your union takes towards workers who are nothing more than simply lazy is what gives unions the world over bad names.

I've been a member of various unions as have many members of my family and for what they've done in the positive I, of course, applaud thier efforts. However thier political partisanship and protection of the enormously incapable make them a practically useless entity.

As per union involvment on the Cape May line (lest we forget where we begin) I see it as a negative rather than a positive. Your double tongued stance on the reactivation of the line is almost as bad as the flip-flopping of the politicians you lament. No rail service...but if there is rail service the jobs are ours! Take a step back and look at the stupidity of the simplistic breakdown of your union's opinion.

Have you ever heard of a backbone? It's what allows you to enforce character. If you belive the managment is running the system wrong, try saying something. A few of my fellow military people should have done that in that prison over in Iraq and since they didn't, look what happened!
As a reciever of tax dollars it is part of your job to not just roll over nad accept a pay check. Did you ever write a letter to a newspaper about how bad the system is? I have! Have you ever voiced your concerns to politicians? I have! Maybe instead of just collecting that paycheck and trying to collect union fees from as many rail workers in our Great State New Jersey as possible you should...I dunno...organize and do something about the poor service! Oh wait...organized...labor...<GASP!>...that's almost like what a union is supposed to do! Who would have guessed that organized labor meant organized labor?

The poor quality of the system, even if it isn't your fault, reflects poorly on you. I used to vote Republican and right now that's reflecting badly on me so I am doing something about it. Your service sucks! Do something about it.

More rail service is a good thing, not a bad thing. If we don't waste tax money on rail, it'll go for pay-raises to our legislature or those cursed managers.

Personally I can't see why transit won't run rail service to Cape May. It is a wonderfully vibrant community (rare for South Jersey) and would no doubt benefit from a commuting option.

TR-00

Post by TR-00 » Sat Jun 05, 2004 7:19 pm

Once again, your statements are ludicrous. To say that we, as a union have not stood up to management, and given positive input is completly false. I don't know where in "North Jersey" you live, but if you had taken the time in the last two years to read the Star Ledger, Bergen Record, Home News Journal, Asbury Park Press, Trentonian, Trenton Times, Courier Post or Press of Atlantic City , you would have encountered at least one of the 61 different articles or interviews prompted by our union.

We do attend board meetings, lobby State and Federal legislators and do strongly oppose any acts by these bodies that we feel would inperil the safety, comfort and service that we attempt to provide to our passengers.

Our main resistance to Cape May service is that it would be a drain on tax dollars that could be used for many more needed projects.

Stating that 98% of our members are "boors" simply enlightens the fact that you refuse to let facts get in the way of your argument. In fact, the majority of the men and women of ours and the other NJ Transit unions are hard working Americans who want to earn a day's pay for a day's work. In the last three years, over 30 of our members have served on active duty in the Middle East. And none of them served as REMF's. These are the "boorish and criminally stupid" people you are refering to?

Backbone? Yes, you are right. The only time I stood up in the military was when I was given the Air Medal (V), the Bronze Star and not one, but two Purple Hearts. If I had backbone, I could have avoided that and been a REMF.

JJMDiMunno
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Post by JJMDiMunno » Sun Jun 06, 2004 9:26 pm

OK gentlemen...may I remind you that we've been venturing off-topic here for a while now. I let this go for some time hoping that we'd eventually end up back on the topic we started out with (concerning Cape May Seashore Lines running freight service into Tuckahoe and / or Winslow), but that really hasn't happened as of yet...

Just a little reminder of what the original topic was here...

Mike DiMunno
Forum Moderator
~Mike DiMunno
CSAO Beesley Point Secondary - MP 8.69 (Magnolia, NJ)
Moderator: Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines :: Penn Central

Elwood

Post by Elwood » Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:00 pm

My son took my brother and I down to Cape May and we took a ride on the CMSL. The copnductor made it sound like ever reaching Tuckahoe junction is a very long way into the future for any kind of service. What is the status of the rehabilitation of the line now?

Elwood

JJMDiMunno
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Post by JJMDiMunno » Sun Jul 04, 2004 10:56 pm

Elwood wrote:My son took my brother and I down to Cape May and we took a ride on the CMSL. The copnductor made it sound like ever reaching Tuckahoe junction is a very long way into the future for any kind of service. What is the status of the rehabilitation of the line now?
Last I heard, freight service was to begin by August. I am personally doubting this however, as none of the customer sidings have been constructed yet and here we are in July.

Rail status:

Cape May to Cape May Courthouse: FRA class II (25 freight, 30 passenger) as we all know already...

Cape May Courthouse to Woodbine: Excepted Track (no change, freight 10MPH)

Woodbine to Tuckahoe: FRA class II (25 freight, 30 passenger)...

Mike DiMunno
~Mike DiMunno
CSAO Beesley Point Secondary - MP 8.69 (Magnolia, NJ)
Moderator: Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines :: Penn Central

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