CMSL into Tuckahoe, maybe Winslow

Discussion relating to the PRSL

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mgdemarco2

CMSL into Tuckahoe, maybe Winslow

Post by mgdemarco2 » Sun May 16, 2004 2:41 pm

I asked this on the old forum but its gone and now the answers might be different anyway: Any predictions for when the CMSL will start regular service into Tuckahoe? Also, if the England power plant closes wouldn't it be possbile that CMSL could get a great deal on leasing the track from conrail since conrail will not be using it anymore? Seems like the cmsl could lowball conrail because it would be better than nothing.

TR-00

Post by TR-00 » Sun May 16, 2004 7:42 pm

Conrail doesn't own the Beesley's Point Secondary. It is owned by NJ Transit, and any passenger trains operated over it belong to NJT crews.

Should the CMSL attempt to operate, you can bet that the BLET (now merged with the Teamsters) will use every legal means at their disposal to prevent scabs from operating on the line.

chuchubob
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CMSL into Tuckahoe, maybe Winslow

Post by chuchubob » Sun May 16, 2004 10:29 pm

CMSL service to Winslow (and Hammonton) will happen when hell freezes over. That's what everybody said about CMSL service into Cape May City five years ago.

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JJMDiMunno
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Re: CMSL into Tuckahoe, maybe Winslow

Post by JJMDiMunno » Mon May 17, 2004 12:06 pm

mgdemarco2 wrote:I asked this on the old forum but its gone and now the answers might be different anyway: Any predictions for when the CMSL will start regular service into Tuckahoe? Also, if the England power plant closes wouldn't it be possbile that CMSL could get a great deal on leasing the track from conrail since conrail will not be using it anymore? Seems like the cmsl could lowball conrail because it would be better than nothing.
From the latest information I've got, CMSL plans to begin freight service from Tuckahoe to Woodbine by the end of the current year, 2004.

Also, it has been proposed that CMSL may lease the Beesley Point Secondary between Tuckahoe and Winslow from NJT once the plant is closed. Another solution is that SRNJ may lease the line to deliver freight to Tuckahoe. One way or another, carload freight is going to have to reach Tuckahoe from Winslow still...and it dosen't seem very likely that Conrail will retain their rights on that line...

Mike DiMunno
www.SJRail.com : All about South Jersey Railroads!
~Mike DiMunno
CSAO Beesley Point Secondary - MP 8.69 (Magnolia, NJ)
Moderator: Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines :: Penn Central

EugeneV.Debs
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Post by EugeneV.Debs » Mon May 17, 2004 1:11 pm

When is Beesley's Point expected to close?

JDFX

Post by JDFX » Thu May 20, 2004 3:15 am

Keep in mind though that once Conrail gets out, NJT isn't using the trackage, and may very well sell it to the CMSL.

Considering that NJT is strapped for cash (please, without making this a political discussion) they very well may consider selling it off.

It would give NJT a chance to make infrastructure improvements, or help purchase much needed equipment, while giving the CMSL a chance to expand their operation in both freight and passenger.

It would be a win-win for everybody.

TR-00

Post by TR-00 » Thu May 20, 2004 10:01 pm

The sale to the CMSL is questionable. It would not be easy to raise the money for the purchase price. Remember that the River Line was purchased for 64 million. The cost of rehabbing the line would be fantastic and certainly not an item that could be recovered from daily operations.

This would mean that the CMSL would have to go on 'welfare' in the form of large state subsidies, which simply are not there.

Finally, work on that line does not belong to the CMSL by federal law. Our Union, for one, will use every means legally at its disposal to stop the tremendous waste of tax dollars on such a worthless project.

JJMDiMunno
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Post by JJMDiMunno » Thu May 20, 2004 10:44 pm

TR-00 wrote:The sale to the CMSL is questionable. It would not be easy to raise the money for the purchase price. Remember that the River Line was purchased for 64 million. The cost of rehabbing the line would be fantastic and certainly not an item that could be recovered from daily operations.

This would mean that the CMSL would have to go on 'welfare' in the form of large state subsidies, which simply are not there.

Finally, work on that line does not belong to the CMSL by federal law. Our Union, for one, will use every means legally at its disposal to stop the tremendous waste of tax dollars on such a worthless project.
Folks, chances are here that the line will not be sold to CMSL. CMSL dosen't even own the Cape May Branch. They lease that. Chances are that if CMSL does take control of the Beesley's from WInslow to Tuckahoe, that it will be through another long term lease, like the one they have at the present moment for the CM branch.

And we're not necessarily talking about passenger service here guys, which is what I think some of you are hung up on. We're talking about the ability to move carload revenue freight between Winslow and TUckahoe, to Woodbine, the service that is supposed to start by the end of the current year. No large track improvements needed to do that...none at all actually.
~Mike DiMunno
CSAO Beesley Point Secondary - MP 8.69 (Magnolia, NJ)
Moderator: Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines :: Penn Central

JDFX

Post by JDFX » Fri May 21, 2004 3:27 am

TR-00 wrote:Our Union, for one, will use every means legally at its disposal to stop the tremendous waste of tax dollars on such a worthless project.
We heard you the first time with the "Union Rhetoric" already, no need to keep throwing up in everybodys face...

Also, tremendous waste of tax dollars, I question that opinion, because I would be willing to bet that if NJ Transit were to offer the service, then you'd find it perfectly acceptable.

Seriously, I think your views are a bit tainted.

TR-00

Post by TR-00 » Fri May 21, 2004 10:28 am

Considering that I am a railroader and a Union representative, my views are certainly tainted. It is my obligation to protect our jobs, and there is nothing wrong with that. Surely most people would protest if they felt their jobs, or jobs that rightfully belonged to them were being threatened.

As far as frieght goes, CR may well intend to deliver freight to Tuckahoe. Even though the BL England plant is scheduled to close in 2006, CR has yet to state that they are abandoning service on the line (other than the trains to the plant). Thus, most of this entire discussion is a bit premature.

Remember that the SRNJ still has rights over the Tuckahoe-Winslow portion of the line, even if they have not been used for several years.

Passenger service over the line whether operated by NJT, CMSL, SRNJ or CalTrans is a waste of much needed money.

JJMDiMunno
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Post by JJMDiMunno » Fri May 21, 2004 11:47 am

TR-00 wrote:As far as frieght goes, CR may well intend to deliver freight to Tuckahoe. Even though the BL England plant is scheduled to close in 2006, CR has yet to state that they are abandoning service on the line (other than the trains to the plant). Thus, most of this entire discussion is a bit premature.

Remember that the SRNJ still has rights over the Tuckahoe-Winslow portion of the line, even if they have not been used for several years.
Oh yes, they may very well intend to do so...there may be a significant number of carloads being moved in and out of Woodbine...only time will tell on this one though...even if Conrail chose to retain the rights to Tuckahoe, if they wanted to save money, they could knock that whole thing down to one big industrial track (if the state would allow that, they might restrict that from happening since the track is under their ownership). Cuts down a lot on the maintainance requirements and track inspections...

Also concerning SRNJ's rights...someone else here might be able to confirm or deny this, however I believe that SRNJ no longer holds rights to Tuckahoe. To my knowledge, their rights now exist only between DCS-ANCHOR and DCS-BART to use the siding at Winslow if necessary. I believe they gave the ones up to Tuckahoe when they gave up the rights on the Cape May Branch years ago...
~Mike DiMunno
CSAO Beesley Point Secondary - MP 8.69 (Magnolia, NJ)
Moderator: Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines :: Penn Central

Elwood

Post by Elwood » Fri May 21, 2004 2:04 pm

I have reason to believe Mister DiMunno is correct in that the SRNJ no longer has rights to Tuckhoe. Those were given up with the Cape May Branch rights.

Elwood

SemperFiSep11

Post by SemperFiSep11 » Sat May 22, 2004 8:59 am

Government subsidies to run a rail operation? NEVER!!!!

I mean, after all, NJT runs a speedy, clean, efficent, and well steffed service (gag), which, through the conviction of its' fine employees beliefs turns down our tax dollars, right?

The union is going to fight something that would be good for our Great State...imagine that... Let's count the big successes of unions in American business:

1) The steel industry. Booming and thriving, right?

Need I list any more?

As I have stated before in previous rambling posts, why can't we all just discuss and debate the qualities of what is happening here rather than dragging in union politics and personal opinions?

In my book anyone who wants to try to run a train to perform a service is good in my book. My tax dollars might as well be used for something worthwhile rather than to fly our governor around the state trying to blame the DYFS mess on someone else...

I say bring the rails all the way back to Lakehurst.

EugeneV.Debs
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Post by EugeneV.Debs » Sun May 23, 2004 1:30 am

May I ask what union we are speaking about?

JDFX

Post by JDFX » Sun May 23, 2004 8:24 am

Their referring to the Brother Hood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen, which is part of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters now.

Prior to the merger, it was just the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers.

anyway, Me personally, I am not anti-union. My future brother in law is a business rep for Local 97, which, among other things, represents Anheiser-Bush, Robert Wood Johnson Hospital, etc.

I see the work and hours he puts in, and he really gives a damned about "his guys".

But, the problem I do have is two-fold.

1.) Bragging that your part of a Union, and then threatening legal recourse by way of the Union is exactly the attitude which turns society AGAINST organized labor.

The idea is to get the average citizen, who is not part of organized labor, to turn around and support your efforts, either through a donation to the worker's comp fund, or through a boycott of a certain company's product, or even just bringing coffee to a line of employees who are locked out.

Part of the reason organized labor is on the decline in this country is because for years, many unions had this attitude which Mr TR-00 displays, and if they don't get their way, they'll bully you into submission. The public in general is turned off by this, (evidence is all the anti-bullying laws in schools now).

Of course, there are other reasons as well (exporting jobs, facility reductions, automation, etc.) but public support of organized labor is the worst its ever been nation wide.

2.) Face it, New Jersey Transit will never run trains on the Beesley's Point Secondary. For them, they're just flat broke. This is where the BLE&T can really shine in the eyes of the public if they wanted to.

Instead of holding out with threats about legal recourse, while waiting for the goose to lay the golden egg, which will NEVER happen, they should be throwing their support behind the idea of supporting the CMSL's efforts.

To put it another way, its like this. either:

A.) Screw the local residents in that part of the state, tie up any chances of passenger services on that line, get bad press in area newspapers (cause the media loves making organized labor look like crap), piss off the general public, and not gain any increase in membership because there was no increase in Job Positions.

or

B.) support the sale of the line (or lease) to CMSL, get the project off the ground, get good press in area newspapers for a change, show the public that organized labor works to help benefit transportation in the state, and increase membership by a dozen or so because once trains can connect with the AC line, ridership will increase, and along with it, the need to operate more trains.

Waiting for the big membership increase win-fall will never happen. NJT is broke, its obvious the politicians, both democrat and republican don't care. Since the politicos in NJ don't care, the labor unions need to get the general public to support them.

I don't know if the CMSL is represented, and if so, by who, but figure this, if their operation expands, their membership will rise too. If their not organized, they can be, and if they are organized, eventually, they'll be merged into a larger division or local. Either way, you'l get the membership in the long term.

Diplomacy and Publicity is a double edged sword. Used wisely, it can advance your efforts. Used carelessly, and it only hurts you.

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