Route 15

[adamkrom]

The 56 is being paved over because Torresdale Avenue merchants are sick of the bumpy street and the city has folded on the trolley issue.

There is only less than a mile, I think, where this is a concern, but with SEPTA and Philly, why not just throw away millions of dollars in track and overhead rather than repave just a short stretch of street.

I am sure once the trolley track is paved over business will just boom on Torresdale.

[Wdobner]

I am fairly certain that the tracks will not be removed in this repaving effort. I have seen the official PennDot plans and all they call for is for a mill and overlay job on the outer four feet of the road. This entails a diamond tipped drill chewing up the road down a few inches and then new asphalt placed over it. The tracks will not be touched by Penndot, but it seems that even SEPTA will not remove them, only the wires and uprights for them. This isn't a wholly bad thing, since the wires are in terrible shape as it is, if the 56 is to be reinstated it'd only make sense to completely rebuild the wire structure, it's falling apart as is from oversized trucks driven by the iliterate.

You do realize that more business would come to Torresdale if the trolleys were reinstated, correct? Paving over the tracks will do nothing more than encourage the people on the street and in the surrounding neighborhoods to drive to the nearest supermarkets and big box stores. This is the exact wrong thing for such an urban, close packed community. Look at what has happened in West Philadelphia, the Subway Surface lines have kept their neighborhoods solvent where others have burst, this is what could happen if the 56 was reinstated along it's whole length. Admittedly the whole route would have to be rebuilt like the Subway Surface lines, with rubber encased standard rail and such, but in the end it'd be more than worth it. If SEPTA could order some low floor LRVs then the whole system might have a fighting chance. I like the Skoda Astra 10T for the 15, 23 and 56 (as well as a future 60), especially a single ended, unidirectional version. It seems to me that contrary to the problems encountered with Bredas and Boeings in San Fransisco and Boston, the Skoda's light weight and lack of a no-axle idler truck in the middle of the car would lend itself to SEPTA's old streetcar trackage.

[amusing erudition]

If you're looking to reconvert former streetcar lines (vis-a-vis route 60 in the post above), I submit that it would be relatively easy to convert any bus route in the city that (a) runs a simple route--streetcars tend not to have too many turns (b) runs on a relatively wide street, and (c) has access to a streetcar depot. Routes 60 and 43 are the first ones that come to my mind, but I'm sure there are others you all can submit that fit those criteria.

And there is a single-ended Skoda streetcar, the 3T. It's basically the same design as the Portland and Tacoma double-ended versions, except for that though. I believe it's only used in Europe.

Here is a photo of one of the single-ended 3Ts in Plzeň, Czech Rep.: http://www.skoda.cz/obrazek.asp?ID=1518

-asg

[jsc]

Back to the 15, I finally rode my bike up to Callowhill to see what the big deal is.

There are busses parked idling all along the 59th street side of the building. I'd hate to listen to (and smell) that all day!

the tracks on 58th street end abruptly just before Haverford. It would be easier to suspend parking there because of the park but that certainly isn't an option.

The trolley bays are completely empty. amazing. When asked about the readyness of the depot for trolley operations, the operators who were lounging around laughed.

The whole 59th street issue disgusts me. Someone needs to be fired.

[kevikens]

I am a little confused. Does this mean that Septa is not running test cars on the line? I've been hoping to get over to look for some of the PCC's but I am getting the message that they are not running at all.

[jfrey40535]

SEPTA only occasionally runs a test car down the tracks. I saw one last week, but they probablly only do it once a week to keep the tracks in shape. The cars are being runs up from Elmwood Depot.

Keep your eyes on the Phila Daily News. They will be running a front page story on this fiasco within the next week or so. I'm suprised there is no public outrage over this, particuarlly by residents along route 10 who have to transfer from bus to trolley to get downtown.

[queenlnr8]

You know, (and I know I will get flamed for this) but, at this point I say screw the restored PCCs and buy all new something and just get the service running.

As I have said before, the Breda San Francisco MUNI cars would be fantastic to get the service running. I am sure that they can be fitted with trolley poles for running on the street and in the subway.

Comments?

[amusing erudition]

You know, (and I know I will get flamed for this) but, at this point I say screw the restored PCCs and buy all new something and just get the service running.

What is it about the PCCs that is preventing the line from operating? I thought it was all a parking issue outside the depot. Won't that continue to be a problem with any equipment?

As I have said before, the Breda San Francisco MUNI cars would be fantastic to get the service running. I am sure that they can be fitted with trolley poles for running on the street and in the subway.

There's really no reason to buy the Bredas that San Francisco has unless you're planning on running to a lot of fare-controlled stations because you can only use one of the 4 doors for boarding elsewhere (rather, the subway-surface has but three fare-controlled stations). Also they're good if you need dual-platform capability, which Philadelphia does not. These are features you pay for that would not really be used. I very much support their use if you're going to need either or both of these features, but otherwise, I prefer a low-floor car that would be accessible, such as the Skoda 3T or 10T.

If you were to buy them, I think you could get away without refitting them. They do run on the same tracks and same wires in places as the E (proposed) and F lines that use (or will use) our PCCs still with their poles.

-asg

[queenlnr8]

Philadelphia should be looking toward the future rather than the past. Why make it so that they can never have high level platforms when you buy the only low platform Skodas?

Plus, MUNI uses a P.O.P. system. SEPTA should maybe think of going to this system for their (new) trolley netowrk.

[amusing erudition]

Philadelphia should be looking toward the future rather than the past. Why make it so that they can never have high level platforms when you buy the only low platform Skodas?'

Because the low-floors are accessible at street stops, and because there is no need for high platforms with low-floor cars. This is to say that the plusses of a high platform are (obviously) plusses for high-floor cars only, and that there is no point to them otherwise. Level boarding from low platforms to low-floored cars is as good as level boarding from high platforms to high-floored cars. So the accessibility tips the scale in favor of low-floors. The question is why do you think that raising the platforms cannot be replaced by lowering the floors of the cars?

Plus, MUNI uses a P.O.P. system. SEPTA should maybe think of going to this system for their (new) trolley netowrk.

Or for the entire transit system. I like the idea of POP, it would allow faster boarding and exit, but by no means are Muni's cars the only ones that allow for it. There are certainly systems with low-floors that use POP.

-asg

[Irish Chieftain]

Let me remind everyone that POP requires TVMs all over the system. Where could one put TVMs for the surface parts of the subway-surface, for example...? Not to mention, I have myself yet to see one POP system that employs full-time fare inspectors to prevent fare evasion. Further, TVMs when it comes to adding POP to subway and LRT systems that use one-person fare collection actually increases costs by requiring additional personnel to check the tickets. POP is not all that it is cracked up to be.

[amusing erudition]

I see your point about requiring extra personnel and the extra cost that would require, but it wouldn't be the end of the world to give some people jobs in today's world.

As far as TVMs at various places, TVMs do not have to be those huge things SEPTA and NJT use. I've seen ones that are smaller than a bar stool and are fully capable of accepting cash and cards. Granted for an organization that hates progress, any TVMs are not consistent with their goal, but it would be easy to install minimalist TVMs all over the place with a simple tap to the power and telephone lines.

-Adam

[jfrey40535]

PCC's have NOTHING to do with the service not running. Its now a legal issue and could be tied up in courts for a very long time.

You guys need to be realistic here. We're lucky we even got this far with the 15, let alone any other new starts here. I seriously doubt we will see any other surface rail lines come back in our lifetimes. SEPTA and this region are so non-progressive its not even funny. The 53 is already being paved over, so why would we think we're going to get something with high-level platforms and TVM's?

I mean come on!!! Lets be real! I can't even go to a EL station and buy tokens! I was at Girard station today, which has no token machine. I'm used to that, but the useless lard-ball in the token booth had a sign up saying "NO TOKENS, NO TRANSPASSES, NO CHANGE". How nice. Give the guy a $5 and get no change back. Wonderful. No wonder SEPTA is the transit system of the poor.....

[JeffK]

Why do you think SEPTA's slogan is/was "Serious about change"? If you're going to ride, you'd better have some serious change in your pockets.

AFAIK the MFSE and BSS are still bound by the Community Legal Services agreement that you can pay $1.30 in cash if tokens are not available, but I imagine it's not all that easy to convince some of the schlubs in the cashiers' booths of that fact.

"No tokens, no passes, no change, no help whatsoever" just reinforces my contention that SEPTA finds it easier squeeze more $$$ from those who can least afford it than to fix their godawful fare system.

OK, this post is not directly related to Route 15 but it's all illustrative of the same anti-rider, anti-efficiency attytood that pervades SEPTA.

[Irish Chieftain]

You guys need to be realistic here. We're lucky we even got this far with the 15, let alone any other new starts here

With or without lobbying efforts? Time to speak up, and quite loudly, if you don't want any more streetcar tracks disappearing.