Asking Philosophically: Why Does SEPTA Suck So Badly?

[Tritransit Area]

If I'm not mistaken, regional rail service between Newark and Perryville requires an extra track to be built, or at least a passing siding somewhere along that length. Even if that is built, I still disagree that SEPTA should cover the distance. There is probably not much commuter traffic from that area into Philly, although maybe some into Wilmington, and I can't imagine it would be worthwhile for SEPTA to expand into that territory. On the other hand, MARC should step up and cover that area into Newark (which they have previously discussed). Once the expanded Newark station is completed, it should be able to handle transfers between SEPTA and MARC trains, although it cannot now with only one platform for commuter rail.

Of course, as a commuter from Philly to Elkton, I would LOVE to have SEPTA service extend that far, but I personally don't think that it's feasible.

Elkton is another good choice for expanded Wilmington/Newark service. Whenever I try to convince people that SEPTA should expand into Maryland, I make the argument that Cecil County is included in the Philadelphia area. SEPTA would simply be serving part of the Delaware Valley, albeit not in its five-county jurisdiction. If I was at the top of the command chain at SEPTA, I would do with the Wilmington/Newark Line what SEPTA is doing with the MLF and BSL: I would run this service for a limited interval of time in order to test the waters of possible service to Maryland, and possibly a commuter connection to MARC.

My own solution to this is to find some billionaire who loves trains, and convince him to buy out SEPTA and run the whole system as a hobby. I can’t see how that could work any worse, and at this point, it hardly seems any more unrealistic than SEPTA getting off its ass and running trains to West Chester.

I'm currently in college trying to become a doctor; however, I have always wanted to start a big, multinational pharmaceutical corporation. If I get rich off of that, then count me in!

This is somewhat related, but DART First State is planning to eliminate its one bus route into Cecil County, the 65, that runs between Cecil County and Elkton, MD. I guess they aren't interested in funding a service that primarily would benefit MD residents. I doubt they'd pay for railroad service to Elkton ,and at this point we are WAY out of the 5 County Service Area that SEPTA is charged with to serve. I agree that MARC should be the operator to test these waters. Besides, SEPTA's trains don't have bathrooms and you are pushing it with the length of the line going all the way to MD, especially on a local train.

[ExCon90]

But SEPTA's trials on the BSL and MFL take place on existing track. I don't see any possibility of additional service between Newark and Perryville without a fourth track from Newark to BACON (at North East) and a third track from BACON to PRINCE (north of Perryville), with necessary interlocking modifications; that will require more than a let's-try-it-and-see-how-it-goes experiment. There would have to be very convincing indications that the service would indeed be well used before spending that kind of money.

[sammy2009]

I might be the oddball here on this topic. I dont see any future in SEPTA ever expanding past Newark,DE ...and esp.to Maryland. For me from reading prior posts..it seems that a new track or tracks would have to be built...new overhead wires..

Main Reasons:
*I just don't feel AMTRAK letting all this construction happen on their property...ofcourse for them $$$$ for usage and rights would be good for them....but would they really want to slow up a portion of the Northeast Corridor where there isn't any other railroad operating ....Newark,DE to Perryville, or Elkton....think about it. AMTRAK is already on the hype of slowness on the Northeast Corridor with SEPTA,NJTRANSIT, METRO-NORTH, MBTA operating on their tracks plus freight lines.etc. I dont see them being okay with this. All of that traffic already is a bit much.

*I dont feel that there would be much of a demand for it...far as coming to Philadelphia ...yes Cecil County is apart of the Philadelphia Metro Area but how many ppl do you run into that say they live in Cecil County ? ...some may argue that Philly-NY market is there...thats just it. The Philly-NY Commute market is very strong. With SEPTA/NJTRANSIT. @TRENTON. They are closer then Philly and Maryland...and people working in both and living in either one is increasing. The DEMAND is there. I would say that SEPTA/NJTRANSIT would have more in common then say MARC....thats just my opinion.

*Politics......FIRST AND FOREMOST...PA is not paying for nothing we already know that....thats out. SEPTA is not budging until someone gives the "It
's on our tab" lol. The neighboring states would be a mess and all of the NIMBY ppl. And besides SEPTA has it's own projects that needs to be done in the five - county region first before they extend to another state.


If it happens...then that would be cool and dandy. I always say I can get to Connecticut via SEPTA/NJTRANSIT/METRO-NORTH LOL....But ya never know.

[BuddCar711]

*I just don't feel AMTRAK letting all this construction happen on their property...ofcourse for them $$$$ for usage and rights would be good for them....but would they really want to slow up a portion of the Northeast Corridor where there isn't any other railroad operating ....Newark,DE to Perryville, or Elkton....think about it. AMTRAK is already on the hype of slowness on the Northeast Corridor with SEPTA,NJTRANSIT, METRO-NORTH, MBTA operating on their tracks plus freight lines.etc. I dont see them being okay with this. All of that traffic already is a bit much.

Isn't DART funding construction of another track for the purpose of bringing MARC into Delaware? IMO, a gap needs to be bridged. Right now, along the Northeast Corridor going North, SEPTA goes into Trenton to connect with N.J. Transit which connects with L.I.R.R. in New York (not sure if N.J. Transit connects with Metro North, does connect with MBTA), but going South, there's Baltimore and D.C., and SEPTA should connect with MARC (which connects with V.R.E. in D.C.) for the purpose of offering a cheaper alternative to Amtrak.

[25Hz]

All I know is that lack of options to get around will bite us in the rear as other regions expand their systems and trains per hour etc.

Can you expand on this? Do you mean neighboring regions with trains that connect to SEPTA? At Trenton, NJT provides around 2 or 3x the frequency as SEPTA, yet SEPTA almost never fills more than 2 cars there. It'd be a waste of resources to add extra runs on a 33-mile line just to reduce the wait times for a few dozen passengers by 15 or 30 minutes. The crew could probably better serve an overcrowded line like Paoli, for instance. Amtrak has 700 passengers a day at Paoli; presumably a bunch of them are going to Philadelphia and prefer Amtrak to SEPTA.

We are seeing a transit boom all across the country, and all we here are asking for is 4 re-activations on lines that all ready had service for over a hundred years.

I think the NIMBY factor needs to be told, "if you don't like it, move elsewhere, because this is what it takes to cultivate and maintain a proper healthy metro region, especially one as tied into its neighbors as the one SEPTA serves".

Just because joe smith doesn't and will never ride the train, should not mean that hundreds or thousands of others cannot because joe smith decided to make it his personal mission to stop the line from being extended with facebook groups and the like. These people are standing in the way of healthy growth and progress and in my personal opinion should be ignored. The rail line is there, if you didnt like the possibility of re-acivation, you shoulda picked another place to live. Drives me nuts how entitled people are to think their car ogling subset thinks they can, on our behalf, say no. They do not represent the region they represent people that will not take transit. My question then is why on earth is anyone building a GD trail when we have real problems with road congestion and pollution and wear/upkeep on these roads? Not only is this trend frustrating and ridiculous.....it's embarrassing!!!!!

Everyone has their finger in the pie, vs a central "ok we are gonna do this" agency like MTA or NJT. We rely too much on counties doing things. We need the state to do this, because the joe smiths of the world sitting alone in their car for 30-120 minutes does not have the answer, they represent the problem.

I am so desperate for some bold and innovative thinking and planning from 1234 market. I am so weary and wary of all the decisions they have made so far in the last 10 years. People love ot point out tiny little improvements that in reality are useless half measures. Service to colmar, increased subway service. You gotta be joking, you know? Show me a SEPTA that moves forward and i'll happily change my tune and end my rants.

[loufah]

Everyone has their finger in the pie, vs a central "ok we are gonna do this" agency like MTA or NJT. We rely too much on counties doing things. We need the state to do this, because the joe smiths of the world sitting alone in their car for 30-120 minutes does not have the answer, they represent the problem.

I think funding is the problem, not a few NIMBYs. No state in the area is more ideologically diverse on social policy as Pennsylvania, except perhaps for Virginia, so don't expect funding for urban transit to improve if there were more state-centric control. Virginia funded their transportation bill, after much debate, by raising the state sales tax by 100 basis points to 5% in Northern Virginia and Hampton Roads. Maybe that's what PA will have to do.

[loufah]

My question then is why on earth is anyone building a GD trail when we have real problems with road congestion and pollution and wear/upkeep on these roads?

You are not going to get tree-huggers on your side here. They want fewer cars and fewer trains. I talked with a local Sierra Club chapter leader about this, and his position was that people and jobs (except for farming) should all be in densely-populated cities.

[25Hz]

My question then is why on earth is anyone building a GD trail when we have real problems with road congestion and pollution and wear/upkeep on these roads?

You are not going to get tree-huggers on your side here. They want fewer cars and fewer trains. I talked with a local Sierra Club chapter leader about this, and his position was that people and jobs (except for farming) should all be in densely-populated cities.

Well that's just stupid, and contrary to fact. Having everyone living on top of each other has proven to increase everything from crime to the spread of illnesses and poor air quality and heat island due to lack of vegetation & flooding due to lack of permeable surfaces.

You have to drive to most of these trails, so there is another hypocritical point.

I'm about as "tree-hugger" as you can get without living off the grid in a commune and i feel that the misguided efforts of some of these groups (that are actually positive in other areas such as fuel efficiency standards and power plant emissions limits) are ruining our chances to make a truly sustainable future. You cannot force everyone to live in one area, this idea is straight out of a bad sci-fi novel. Efficient & limited personal vehicles, efficient and expansive transit, and more efficient minimum code such as requiring rainwater collection systems, PV and micro wind & geothermal, combined with cradle to cradle building materials is what will get us to long term sustainability, not shoving everyone into Philadelphia.

So act 89, what about in 8 years when everything has stopped falling down, still no expansion, still huge gaps in schedules? Do the people at 1234 market realize they are creating the environment of less riders by how they keep doing things? The whole center city-centric theme needs to die. Clearly it is not working. What was that about doing the same thing & expecting different results?

[N.E.Pennsy]

I think the NIMBY factor needs to be told, "if you don't like it, move elsewhere, because this is what it takes......

The same could be said to the Transit Phanatics "If you don't like it move to Washington DC, NYC or better yet EUROPE!!"

I believe the majority of taxpayers (non railfan) in SEPTA's 5 County area would agree; especially if you're raising taxes & adding tolls to expand transit.....

I personally think SEPTA does a good job with the budget they have.

[loufah]

You have to drive to most of these trails, so there is another hypocritical point.

RTC wants to add on additional trails so they're contiguous for many miles, in some cases trying to convert active railroads into trails. They want people to walk or bike to work.

[PhilliesPhan2013]

My question then is why on earth is anyone building a GD trail when we have real problems with road congestion and pollution and wear/upkeep on these roads?

You are not going to get tree-huggers on your side here. They want fewer cars and fewer trains. I talked with a local Sierra Club chapter leader about this, and his position was that people and jobs (except for farming) should all be in densely-populated cities.

Tree-huggers should change their positions. EMUs are probably the most efficient means of rail transportation. Sure, it may take a few coal powered plants to generate the electricity for the high voltage lines, which then get stepped down at substations for catenary usage. When one looks at EMUs as compared to DMUs or diesel powered head ends, one will notice that the EMUs do not have the emissions that DMUs have (except for the dissipation of heat, which may look like emissions to some people).

[Launcher]

Have any of you actually ever BEEN on the river line? Its purpose is good, but compared to comparable systems from the same era in St Louis and Pittsburgh and Norristown and Newark and Portland and Virginia Beach etc., it is somewhat deficient IMO. It suffers from low speeds, and if it weren't for the price and the 20 min or better headways, and free parking near 73, it doesn't have a whole lot going for it. Yes, they built it, but for what 8 years & 2 billion bucks it took? That's not the sort of commitment that our PENNSYLVANIA LEGISLATURE (regardless of SEPTA management's appeals to them for Reading & WC service) has been willing or able to offer the city of Phila in a long long time, let alone WEST CHESTER. I don't think West Chester and Quakertown needs the kind of service that the river line offers Camden. It will take even more innovation than that to create ridership in these remote, carloving areas. SEPTA is not cash rich, the only reason they startted running a budget surplus is because they overcharged customers paying on board and cut back ticket machine and window service to make the lines so long that paying the premium is actually advantageous for many commuters especially tourists who don't get to ride everyday and buy the monthly pass.

[25Hz]

Have any of you actually ever BEEN on the river line? Its purpose is good, but compared to comparable systems from the same era in St Louis and Pittsburgh and Norristown and Newark and Portland and Virginia Beach etc., it is somewhat deficient IMO. It suffers from low speeds, and if it weren't for the price and the 20 min or better headways, and free parking near 73, it doesn't have a whole lot going for it. Yes, they built it, but for what 8 years & 2 billion bucks it took? That's not the sort of commitment that our PENNSYLVANIA LEGISLATURE (regardless of SEPTA management's appeals to them for Reading & WC service) has been willing or able to offer the city of Phila in a long long time, let alone WEST CHESTER. I don't think West Chester and Quakertown needs the kind of service that the river line offers Camden. It will take even more innovation than that to create ridership in these remote, carloving areas. SEPTA is not cash rich, the only reason they startted running a budget surplus is because they overcharged customers paying on board and cut back ticket machine and window service to make the lines so long that paying the premium is actually advantageous for many commuters especially tourists who don't get to ride everyday and buy the monthly pass.

Yes, i have ridden it, and i agree it leaves much to be desired. Compared to HBLR is is not as useful. If it was not for the odd position of the tracks and the fact that it runs through a freight yard id say wire it up and use some kinda electric LRV vs a piston or turbine combustion system. And those touting hydrogen must be omitting the fact that hydrogen is fractionated from crude oil and thus not a solution... water vapor is also a greenhouse gas, and methane is a much more powerful greenhouse gas than co2. Sure nuclear has its downsides, but as far as i know it is not adding greenhouse gasses to the atmosphere.

But this is about SEPTA and how poorly they perform vs potential. I say that re-activation of the lines to quakertown, newtown, west chester, and reading would be a boon for the local economy & put in place a long term framework to bring our region's transportation system to a state of sustainability.

[Chessie GM50]

We are seeing a transit boom all across the country, and all we here are asking for is 4 re-activations on lines that all ready had service for over a hundred years.

I think the NIMBY factor needs to be told, "if you don't like it, move elsewhere, because this is what it takes to cultivate and maintain a proper healthy metro region, especially one as tied into its neighbors as the one SEPTA serves".

You will never hear that from a governmentally controlled entity such as SEPTA. If you did, expect whomever is in office to bite the dust in the next election cycle. As much as I hate to say it, Mr. Carlin hit the nail on the head with this one.

Just because joe smith doesn't and will never ride the train, should not mean that hundreds or thousands of others cannot because joe smith decided to make it his personal mission to stop the line from being extended with facebook groups and the like. [...] Drives me nuts how entitled people are to think their car ogling subset thinks they can, on our behalf, say no. They do not represent the region they represent people that will not take transit. My question then is why on earth is anyone building a GD trail when we have real problems with road congestion and pollution and wear/upkeep on these roads? Not only is this trend frustrating and ridiculous.....it's embarrassing!!!!!

[...] We need the state to do this, because the joe smiths of the world sitting alone in their car for 30-120 minutes does not have the answer, they represent the problem.

Not of your own fault, but I always need to approach any discussion involving cars, transportation and the environment with a caveat. American car commuter culture does not, nor should it represent car culture as a whole. As both a classic Swedish car enthusiast and a soon-to-be Geologist, I'll happily drive somewhere if I'm going to an oddball location somewhere in the woods, or just on a fun trip. I would never want to sit in traffic for 2 hours on an interstate seeing the same scenery day in and out on a commute. The point and essence of an Automobile to me is to equally enjoy the drive as much as the destination. It's just completely lost on me why people would choose to stare at someone's bumper for 2 hours a day, let alone if there is a comfortable train going to the same location.

I am so desperate for some bold and innovative thinking and planning from 1234 market. I am so weary and wary of all the decisions they have made so far in the last 10 years. People love ot point out tiny little improvements that in reality are useless half measures. Service to colmar, increased subway service. You gotta be joking, you know? Show me a SEPTA that moves forward and i'll happily change my tune and end my rants.

The best little thing SEPTA could to is order their next round of cars with bathrooms. Creature comforts such as that could get more repeat customers. Remember, it all boils down to the guy behind the purse strings.

My question then is why on earth is anyone building a GD trail when we have real problems with road congestion and pollution and wear/upkeep on these roads?

You are not going to get tree-huggers on your side here. They want fewer cars and fewer trains. I talked with a local Sierra Club chapter leader about this, and his position was that people and jobs (except for farming) should all be in densely-populated cities.

I know those kind of people very well. At best, they are parrots or miseducated in the subject. At worst however, their intentions are much more malevolent than many could imagine. They do not represent the scientific community at-large, but in my experience represent at least one school of thought (sadly, with increasing prevalence) in urban planning and directly related academia.

[CComMack]

My question then is why on earth is anyone building a GD trail when we have real problems with road congestion and pollution and wear/upkeep on these roads? Not only is this trend frustrating and ridiculous.....it's embarrassing!!!!!

Because cycling for transportation needs just as much help as transit, and we're not going to need those ROWs for trains for decades yet. Every person commuting or running an errand by bicycle is one less car on the road, and the least we can all do is to say "thank you". And apart from younger, active, predominantly-male enthusiasts, most people will only ride a bike when they have some form of protection from traffic; in the suburbs, that mostly means trails. And trails are dirt cheap.

I am so desperate for some bold and innovative thinking and planning from 1234 market. I am so weary and wary of all the decisions they have made so far in the last 10 years. People love ot point out tiny little improvements that in reality are useless half measures. Service to colmar, increased subway service. You gotta be joking, you know? Show me a SEPTA that moves forward and i'll happily change my tune and end my rants.

Pretty sure those improvements are only "half-measures" to those who don't benefit from them. To those of us who do get overnight subways or headways cut in half, they're real blessings. And they'd be unthinkable 10 years ago.

Having everyone living on top of each other has proven to increase everything from crime to the spread of illnesses and poor air quality and heat island due to lack of vegetation & flooding due to lack of permeable surfaces.

Please try another line of argument, because this one is offensive as well as being wrong on the merits. Merits first: Crime is as bad or worse in the suburbs on a per capita basis, and don't even try to say that per capita isn't a fair basis. Heat island is only worse because Philadelphians haven't been painting our rooftops white or planting green roofs or maintaining enough street trees; there's virtually no heat island effect on Pine Street through Rittenhouse Square, and the overall outlook is improving throughout the city. Flooding due to impermeable surfaces is something the suburbs contribute to far more than the city, and the gap is widening as the city is cracking down on runoff in lieu of wasting billions of dollars on sewer upgrades to handle rainwater. (Before you're tempted to gloat over the superiority of your separated storm and sanitary sewers over our older combined sewer, think about what that means, about what the relative prioritization of sanitation was, and when.)

Look, it's clear I'm a city person, but I'm not against suburbs. I just think older railroad and streetcar suburbs have a better prognosis going forward. If the newer car-centered suburbs want to retrofit to more transit-friendly arrangements to proof themselves against the new future, I'm more than happy to support them. If people want to turn more farmland into sprawl, I'll oppose them at the top of my lungs. But I don't lie to make my case, and I don't insult the dignity of people I don't know.

I think you'll have an easier time here if you learn to only post what you know for certain, and let others talk about what you don't.