NCS to Broad Street Station ("Newark Light Rail")

Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

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TDowling
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Re: NCS to Broad Street Station ("Newark Light Rail")

Post by TDowling » Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:05 pm

One comment on the NLR extension: personally I think the "split" scheme is a little silly....I mean, Washington Park is what? 100 feet from Atlantic Street/Riverfront Stadium. Plus, the announcements on the light rail "apologize for the inconvenience" of not stopping at Washington Park to customers going in the direction of Broad St.

M&Eman
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Re: NCS to Broad Street Station ("Newark Light Rail")

Post by M&Eman » Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:55 am

TDowling wrote:One comment on the NLR extension: personally I think the "split" scheme is a little silly....I mean, Washington Park is what? 100 feet from Atlantic Street/Riverfront Stadium. Plus, the announcements on the light rail "apologize for the inconvenience" of not stopping at Washington Park to customers going in the direction of Broad St.
Agreed. I think they should have just built both tracks on Atlantic St, turning it into a transit mall, and used the space the light rail takes up on Broad Street for a dedicated bus lane. I suppose that would still be possible to do if there was some cash though...
"The Erie only sells 1 way tickets on the NJ&NY because it only has a 99 year lease on the line."

N4J
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Re: NCS to Broad Street Station ("Newark Light Rail")

Post by N4J » Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:33 am

Some of the proposals that the RPA and other transit advocates think should be built to meet the growing Rail demand of Urban Jersey.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=215 ... 9,0.154324

SightUnseen
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Re: NCS to Broad Street Station ("Newark Light Rail")

Post by SightUnseen » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:10 am

Nexis4Jersey wrote:Some of the proposals that the RPA and other transit advocates think should be built to meet the growing Rail demand of Urban Jersey.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=215 ... 9,0.154324
Interesting

amtrakowitz
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Re: NCS to Broad Street Station ("Newark Light Rail")

Post by amtrakowitz » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:08 pm

M&Eman wrote:
TDowling wrote:One comment on the NLR extension: personally I think the "split" scheme is a little silly....I mean, Washington Park is what? 100 feet from Atlantic Street/Riverfront Stadium. Plus, the announcements on the light rail "apologize for the inconvenience" of not stopping at Washington Park to customers going in the direction of Broad St.
Agreed. I think they should have just built both tracks on Atlantic St, turning it into a transit mall, and used the space the light rail takes up on Broad Street for a dedicated bus lane. I suppose that would still be possible to do if there was some cash though...
$211 million per mile was more than enough money to have built the entire extension underground, FWICS. It's two tracks versus four (judging by the costs of the 8th Avenue line in Manhattan, a four-track subway comes out to about $400 million per mile with cut-&-cover).
SightUnseen wrote:
Nexis4Jersey wrote:Some of the proposals that the RPA and other transit advocates think should be built to meet the growing Rail demand of Urban Jersey
Interesting
Lots of pipe dreams there. There's no rebuilding the entire Newark & New York RR all the way into Newark, especially with an Ironbound tunnel; imagine the expense. The notion of an Erie Newark Branch LRT is long dead, too; and thanks to politicking, it wouldn't be too much cheaper to build a FRA DMU route between Hoboken and Paterson.

A "Newark-Elizabeth streetcar", seriously? especially along Frelinghuysen? I think that Coach USA would fight that one tooth and nail. Never mind the poor idea of a Harrison streetcar along Kearny Avenue which presumably would replace the current bus route 30. Funny how none of the proposals involve converting the Central Avenue, Main Street and Bloomfield Avenue bus routes back to subway-surface. I do like the idea of a Broad Street tunnel, though, although its southern terminus would have to be in the airport more likely; that would eliminate the need for the GO-28 bus route.

Funny how the last NERL proposal has popped back up on there as PATH (clever since it's already FRA and mixing with freight would be no problem apart from freight car clearance at station platforms), but going only as far as Elizabeth Broad Street. You're not getting the PANYNJ to build any further south than the last study point, and that's the EWR monorail station on the NEC.

Funny thing is I like the JFK Boulevard routing to Bayonne better than along the CNJ; but you've got Coach USA to contend with again.

N4J
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Re: NCS to Broad Street Station ("Newark Light Rail")

Post by N4J » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:31 pm

amtrakowitz wrote:
M&Eman wrote:
TDowling wrote:One comment on the NLR extension: personally I think the "split" scheme is a little silly....I mean, Washington Park is what? 100 feet from Atlantic Street/Riverfront Stadium. Plus, the announcements on the light rail "apologize for the inconvenience" of not stopping at Washington Park to customers going in the direction of Broad St.
Agreed. I think they should have just built both tracks on Atlantic St, turning it into a transit mall, and used the space the light rail takes up on Broad Street for a dedicated bus lane. I suppose that would still be possible to do if there was some cash though...
$211 million per mile was more than enough money to have built the entire extension underground, FWICS. It's two tracks versus four (judging by the costs of the 8th Avenue line in Manhattan, a four-track subway comes out to about $400 million per mile with cut-&-cover).
SightUnseen wrote:
Nexis4Jersey wrote:Some of the proposals that the RPA and other transit advocates think should be built to meet the growing Rail demand of Urban Jersey
Interesting
Lots of pipe dreams there. There's no rebuilding the entire Newark & New York RR all the way into Newark, especially with an Ironbound tunnel; imagine the expense. The notion of an Erie Newark Branch LRT is long dead, too; and thanks to politicking, it wouldn't be too much cheaper to build a FRA DMU route between Hoboken and Paterson.

A "Newark-Elizabeth streetcar", seriously? especially along Frelinghuysen? I think that Coach USA would fight that one tooth and nail. Never mind the poor idea of a Harrison streetcar along Kearny Avenue which presumably would replace the current bus route 30. Funny how none of the proposals involve converting the Central Avenue, Main Street and Bloomfield Avenue bus routes back to subway-surface. I do like the idea of a Broad Street tunnel, though, although its southern terminus would have to be in the airport more likely; that would eliminate the need for the GO-28 bus route.

Funny how the last NERL proposal has popped back up on there as PATH (clever since it's already FRA and mixing with freight would be no problem apart from freight car clearance at station platforms), but going only as far as Elizabeth Broad Street. You're not getting the PANYNJ to build any further south than the last study point, and that's the EWR monorail station on the NEC.

Funny thing is I like the JFK Boulevard routing to Bayonne better than along the CNJ; but you've got Coach USA to contend with again.
Alot of these ideas come from Newark City Hall / RPA which factors in the Future growth in Newark and surrounding communities. Some Bus lines like the one which runs through Harrison will have trouble keeping up with population demand from the New Mega Development. Its looking like Board Street will see something similar happen , and south Newark which would demand a streetcar or subway under broad street which has the support from City Hall. It was in the NJT 2020 proposals , but they axed it when they killed the Midtown link. Which is why the RPA and some transit groups call for the PATH to be expanded , there is massive redevelopment planned for around the Port / Jersey Gardens but no transit , same with Midtown Elizzy so the need is there or will be there soon. A bus company is not going to have much leverage in Urban Jersey , Coach Us does interstate bus traveler not Urban. Red and Tan shot themselves in the foot after scaling back service to the area. Bus Rapid Transit is planned for Springfield , Mt Prospect , and Bloomfield Ave , they could be converted to streetcars if needed.

amtrakowitz
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Re: NCS to Broad Street Station ("Newark Light Rail")

Post by amtrakowitz » Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:06 am

A lot of these ideas come from Newark City Hall / RPA which factors in the Future growth in Newark and surrounding communities
City Hall doesn't have the money. NJT is a statewide agency, part of a broke state from whom they'll be begging the cash; and NJ will be begging for cash in turn from an even worse-off federal government.
Some Bus lines like the one which runs through Harrison will have trouble keeping up with population demand from the New Mega Development
What "new mega development" would that be? And what light rail can ever handle significantly more passengers than bus service anyway, at a significantly-higher average speed, while running on the street? NJT already operates articulated buses whose capacity is competitive with LRVs.
It's looking like Broad Street will see something similar happen, and south Newark which would demand a streetcar or subway under broad street which has the support from City Hall. It was in the NJT 2020 proposals, but they axed it when they killed the Midtown link
I recall absolutely no rail tunnel under Broad Street in any NJT 2020 proposal. Nor is anything happening in South Newark.
Which is why the RPA and some transit groups call for the PATH to be expanded; there is massive redevelopment planned for around the Port/Jersey Gardens but no transit, same with Midtown Elizzy(?) so the need is there or will be there soon
Need for what? I already said that PATH is not going any further south than what they have already planned. There are no plans to go anywhere else; and even to the EWR monorail station at Waverly is extremely iffy at present. Saying that development is "planned" means nothing; there was the Allied Junction complex once "planned" for the Frank Lautenberg Station at Secaucus Junction, for example.
A bus company is not going to have much leverage in Urban Jersey, Coach USA does interstate bus traveler not Urban
Coach USA directly operates routes 24, 31, 44 and 77 in Essex County. They own the former Suburban Transit routes in Middlesex and Mercer Counties, as well as Short Line that serves the Route 17 corridor. They also run just about all of the non-NJT bus routes in Hudson County, and run local buses under contract to NJT in Passaic and Bergen Counties. They are no small player in terms of urban bus service, nor even small within New Jersey as a business, having their Northeast Division headquarters in Paramus.
Red and Tan shot themselves in the foot after scaling back service to the area
If NJT ran those routes, the cuts would be more draconian. R&T's coverage is still substantial.
Bus Rapid Transit is planned for Springfield, Mt Prospect, and Bloomfield Ave(nues?); they could be converted to streetcars if needed
NJT has zero plans for "streetcars". And the "need" for a streetcar versus a bus cannot be demonstrated.

N4J
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Re: NCS to Broad Street Station ("Newark Light Rail")

Post by N4J » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:50 am

amtrakowitz wrote:
A lot of these ideas come from Newark City Hall / RPA which factors in the Future growth in Newark and surrounding communities
City Hall doesn't have the money. NJT is a statewide agency, part of a broke state from whom they'll be begging the cash; and NJ will be begging for cash in turn from an even worse-off federal government.
Some Bus lines like the one which runs through Harrison will have trouble keeping up with population demand from the New Mega Development
What "new mega development" would that be? And what light rail can ever handle significantly more passengers than bus service anyway, at a significantly-higher average speed, while running on the street? NJT already operates articulated buses whose capacity is competitive with LRVs.
It's looking like Broad Street will see something similar happen, and south Newark which would demand a streetcar or subway under broad street which has the support from City Hall. It was in the NJT 2020 proposals, but they axed it when they killed the Midtown link
I recall absolutely no rail tunnel under Broad Street in any NJT 2020 proposal. Nor is anything happening in South Newark.
Which is why the RPA and some transit groups call for the PATH to be expanded; there is massive redevelopment planned for around the Port/Jersey Gardens but no transit, same with Midtown Elizzy(?) so the need is there or will be there soon
Need for what? I already said that PATH is not going any further south than what they have already planned. There are no plans to go anywhere else; and even to the EWR monorail station at Waverly is extremely iffy at present. Saying that development is "planned" means nothing; there was the Allied Junction complex once "planned" for the Frank Lautenberg Station at Secaucus Junction, for example.
A bus company is not going to have much leverage in Urban Jersey, Coach USA does interstate bus traveler not Urban
Coach USA directly operates routes 24, 31, 44 and 77 in Essex County. They own the former Suburban Transit routes in Middlesex and Mercer Counties, as well as Short Line that serves the Route 17 corridor. They also run just about all of the non-NJT bus routes in Hudson County, and run local buses under contract to NJT in Passaic and Bergen Counties. They are no small player in terms of urban bus service, nor even small within New Jersey as a business, having their Northeast Division headquarters in Paramus.
Red and Tan shot themselves in the foot after scaling back service to the area
If NJT ran those routes, the cuts would be more draconian. R&T's coverage is still substantial.
Bus Rapid Transit is planned for Springfield, Mt Prospect, and Bloomfield Ave(nues?); they could be converted to streetcars if needed
NJT has zero plans for "streetcars". And the "need" for a streetcar versus a bus cannot be demonstrated.
Every city has a long term build out plan , and in those plans are Transit and roadway improvements. Newark's plan calls for Light Rail expansions towards the South Ward and a streetcar into Harrison , aswell Bus Rapid Transit and Interstate improvements around 280. Light Rail cars can handle 2x the amount of a bus even streetcars can handle 1x the amount of a bus depending on the size , some can even handle 4x the amount. There also economic stimulators , unlike buses. Developers tend to develop around a fixed form a Transportation. Everything south of I-280 in Harrison will be redeveloped into a Dense Urban metropolis with shopping and residential space , 4 high rises are planned. Leaders from Harrison and Kearny have called for a streetcar to replace an existing bus line , restoration of the Kingston Branch and bike lanes to ease future congestion. Same with the LRT extension into East Orange and Bloomfield , there are huge redevelopments planned for that area... You act like Buses are great fort everywhere , there not and they have there limits. If a line has a daily ridership nearing 40,000 then converting it to BRT or LRT needs to happen otherwise overcrowding will destroy that line. I never said NJT had plans for Streetcars , I said the future BRT in Newark could be converted to streetcars....not everything would be run by NJT. How do you know the PATH will never be extended? Once they get to EWR (Eventually) , i'm sure those developers and Elizzy Mayor will push for it...and get it. The Secaucus JCT redevelopment is under construction as we speak in phases , once a warehouse closes shop , the developer tears it down and builds more condos. 4 are about to leave , meaning a huge chunk will open up. That whole area will be transformed and completed by 2030 , like Harrison and Bloomfield , and the Oranges...

orangeline
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Re: NCS to Broad Street Station ("Newark Light Rail")

Post by orangeline » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:23 am

I have been searching for an up-to-date track map of the Newark Light Rail system. All I've been able to locate are route maps to Grove St and Broad St and an old track map from before 2000. Can anyone provide a link to a current track map or at least point me in the right direction? Thanks in advance!
"Welcome aboard Orange Line run 711. Travel time to downtown is 25 minutes. Next stop will be Pulaski."

OportRailfan
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Re: NCS to Broad Street Station ("Newark Light Rail")

Post by OportRailfan » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:31 pm

Dock & Q: Last of a dying breed

orangeline
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Re: NCS to Broad Street Station ("Newark Light Rail")

Post by orangeline » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:43 pm

OportRailfan wrote:That was easy...

http://www.njtransit.com/rg/rg_servlet. ... stemMapsTo

Thank you, but that's a ROUTE map which is very easy to find. What I'm looking for is an up-to-date TRACK map which shows switches and such. There's an old track map for the Newark City Subway from the late 1990s which is the most recent one I could find. I'm sure there's one out there for the current system, but I can't find it.
"Welcome aboard Orange Line run 711. Travel time to downtown is 25 minutes. Next stop will be Pulaski."

RKO36
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Re: Newark Light Rail Extension

Post by RKO36 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:33 am

necrails wrote:One would hope NJT looks to preserve existing ROW and expand the system up towards Nutley. The west side tracks, if no new customers are found, will present an opportunity to link Belville, Nutley and Clifton. A bit of creative engineering will get the line from Broad Street over to the river and on it's way. The same can be said for crossing the river into Kearny. Newark is a transit hub with Penn Station serving transit, Amtrak as well as regional and local buses. LR would further serve this hub. One day when the economy stabalizes perhaps this will come to pass.

As far as inking HBR and NLR, probably not in our lifetime. Maybe Englewood, maybe Staten Island, but crossing the Meadowlands would be a distant third on my list.
As nice (and convenient for me) it would be to bring the light rail into Nutley, it will never happen. Nutley will never ever let it happen until courts force them to. Belleville might be more reluctant, but they have enough problems with criminals coming in from Newark. They don't want to make it easier for them.

kilroy
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Re: Newark Light Rail Extension

Post by kilroy » Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:38 pm

RKO36 wrote:
necrails wrote:One would hope NJT looks to preserve existing ROW and expand the system up towards Nutley. The west side tracks, if no new customers are found, will present an opportunity to link Belville, Nutley and Clifton. A bit of creative engineering will get the line from Broad Street over to the river and on it's way. The same can be said for crossing the river into Kearny. Newark is a transit hub with Penn Station serving transit, Amtrak as well as regional and local buses. LR would further serve this hub. One day when the economy stabalizes perhaps this will come to pass.

As far as inking HBR and NLR, probably not in our lifetime. Maybe Englewood, maybe Staten Island, but crossing the Meadowlands would be a distant third on my list.
As nice (and convenient for me) it would be to bring the light rail into Nutley, it will never happen. Nutley will never ever let it happen until courts force them to. Belleville might be more reluctant, but they have enough problems with criminals coming in from Newark. They don't want to make it easier for them.
Let's see if I get their argument right, residents of the auto theft capital of the world are going to take the light rail into their town, steal their big screen TV and get back on the light rail instead of stealing a SUV in Newark and driving there. Is that right?
Why do we drive on parkways and park in driveways?

SightUnseen
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Re: Newark Light Rail Extension

Post by SightUnseen » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:21 pm

RKO36 wrote:As nice (and convenient for me) it would be to bring the light rail into Nutley, it will never happen. Nutley will never ever let it happen until courts force them to. Belleville might be more reluctant, but they have enough problems with criminals coming in from Newark. They don't want to make it easier for them.
The existing ROW runs through a lot of residential in Nutley, which I can certainly see folks fighting. But I think Nutley would be amenable to station near The old PathMark off of Washington Ave.

Ken W2KB
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Re: Newark Light Rail Extension

Post by Ken W2KB » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:33 am

kilroy wrote:
RKO36 wrote:
necrails wrote:One would hope NJT looks to preserve existing ROW and expand the system up towards Nutley. The west side tracks, if no new customers are found, will present an opportunity to link Belville, Nutley and Clifton. A bit of creative engineering will get the line from Broad Street over to the river and on it's way. The same can be said for crossing the river into Kearny. Newark is a transit hub with Penn Station serving transit, Amtrak as well as regional and local buses. LR would further serve this hub. One day when the economy stabalizes perhaps this will come to pass.

As far as inking HBR and NLR, probably not in our lifetime. Maybe Englewood, maybe Staten Island, but crossing the Meadowlands would be a distant third on my list.
As nice (and convenient for me) it would be to bring the light rail into Nutley, it will never happen. Nutley will never ever let it happen until courts force them to. Belleville might be more reluctant, but they have enough problems with criminals coming in from Newark. They don't want to make it easier for them.
Let's see if I get their argument right, residents of the auto theft capital of the world are going to take the light rail into their town, steal their big screen TV and get back on the light rail instead of stealing a SUV in Newark and driving there. Is that right?
Not how it usually happens. The thieves take public transit to the outlying town, steal a vehicle there and drive back to a chop shop. Sometimes also breaking and entering with stolen property transported back in the stolen vehicle. That is a very common mode for crime where transit from a high crime city exists to surburban areas.
~Ken :: Fairmont ex-UP/MP C436 MT-14M1 ::
Black River Railroad Historical Trust :: [/url]

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