Phillipsburg Rail Service—Four Years, $90 Million

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25Hz
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Re: Phillipsburg rail service—Four years, $90 million

Post by 25Hz » Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:00 am

NJT4115 wrote:I though I-78 severed a section of the line.
No. There is a rail bridge over it to the west and the highway has an overpass in the area being talked about.

There's another line that connects from the south, that isn't severed either, it goes through a tunnel underneath to the east. The line to lambertville via ringoes/flemington is also intact. There is some disused right of way here and there, but all of it has continuity and can be followed if you walked it. :)
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Jtgshu
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Re: Phillipsburg rail service—Four years, $90 million

Post by Jtgshu » Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:09 am

"the line from the south with the tunnel" is the NS Lehigh Line and thats quite busy. They aren't necessarily receptive to hosting pax trains, and that wouldn't be necessary anyway, unless they decided to go all the way into Phillipsburg or westward into PA, and not take the CNJ route and rebuild those last 2 or so miles that are all overgrown past the connection to the Lehigh Line. A station at Exit 7 would be good, plenty of land, and its only probably 2 or 3 miles past NJT ownership line at Ludlow Station Road (MP60 - High Bridge is MP52). The line is intact and relatively clear to this point, as NS cleared their overgrown portion west of Ludlow Station Road early last year. But if you are going to go to Exit 7, why not go to Exit 3, where the line is severed at 78? Building a bridge over 78 is not the worst thing in the world.....and I think if NJT were to go into P-burg, they would probably want to go on their own route and stay off NS as much as possible, if at all.

The line to Flemington isn't necessary intact and walkable. Well it depends on how you are trying to go - if you are referring to the proposed NJT service, It would come down from Bound Brook/Bridgewater more than likely, as the portion of the line to Somerville has some problems - mostly through Dukes Estate. If that were to ever get off the ground, they would probably take the route from Port Reading Junction northeast on the old Reading line to the connection to the RVL at Polhemous Lane, west of Bridgewater. That way, those "pesky" passenger trains would not get in the way in that busy portion inbetween Port Reading Junction and Bound Brook on the LL. Also, if West Trenton were ever to be built, it would probably be easier to build a bridge over the NS Lehigh Line if they were to go that way, down from Polhemous Lane, and stay out the mess that is PR Junction. They could even go and take the route that is I believe the route of the siding to the former Johns Manville plant in Manville - that current huge parking lot with all those cars...I think its an auction? That connects with the RVL just west of Polhemous Lane, past the dump or whatever that place is. The important thing is both those routes have their own bridges over the river.
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25Hz
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Re: Phillipsburg rail service—Four years, $90 million

Post by 25Hz » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:41 am

Oh, i see it now, the old routing that curves its way around alpha. Yea, you'd need a bridge there. The old bridge over 122 where carpentersville roads splits off is still intact, dunno bout structural soundness.... There is room for a second track from that one interchange all the way to the old phillipsburg station without having to run over the old curvy route....
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Re: Phillipsburg rail service—Four years, $90 million

Post by 25Hz » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:45 am

Something i just noticed.... Looks like the remnants of the turntable and roundhouse are still visible east of the old station building.
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Re: Phillipsburg rail service—Four years, $90 million

Post by NYS&W142Fan » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:02 am

25Hz wrote:Oh, i see it now, the old routing that curves its way around alpha. Yea, you'd need a bridge there. The old bridge over 122 where carpentersville roads splits off is still intact, dunno bout structural soundness.... There is room for a second track from that one interchange all the way to the old phillipsburg station without having to run over the old curvy route....
There are two sections where the line is severed. One being where Rt 78 was filled in over it and the piece where the Rt 519 bridge was removed. Greens Bridge, the big stone structure would have to be inspected, but I think they will find it is still sound. Once past Greens Bridge, the NS uses the CNJ RofW into PA. Actually what should be done is for NS to use the LV (curvy route) and NJT to use it's own RofW (CNJ) to P'Burg. At one time there was talk of putting a layover yard near the BelDel tracks where the Penn or LV yard used to be and I think that is still on the books somewhere. With NS looking to double track their line it could get tight in a few places, but it can be done. Also once the service is extended to PA, one logical place to put a new Station on the PA side would be just across the old CNJ Bridge over the Lehigh River where the Freight House used to be. There is a fairly large vacant lot there with room for a small building or shelter and room for parking.

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Re: Phillipsburg rail service—Four years, $90 million

Post by Ken W2KB » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:21 am

Jtgshu wrote:"the line from the south with the tunnel" is the NS Lehigh Line and thats quite busy. They aren't necessarily receptive to hosting pax trains, and that wouldn't be necessary anyway, unless they decided to go all the way into Phillipsburg or westward into PA, and not take the CNJ route and rebuild those last 2 or so miles that are all overgrown past the connection to the Lehigh Line. A station at Exit 7 would be good, plenty of land, and its only probably 2 or 3 miles past NJT ownership line at Ludlow Station Road (MP60 - High Bridge is MP52). The line is intact and relatively clear to this point, as NS cleared their overgrown portion west of Ludlow Station Road early last year. But if you are going to go to Exit 7, why not go to Exit 3, where the line is severed at 78? Building a bridge over 78 is not the worst thing in the world.....and I think if NJT were to go into P-burg, they would probably want to go on their own route and stay off NS as much as possible, if at all.

The line to Flemington isn't necessary intact and walkable. Well it depends on how you are trying to go - if you are referring to the proposed NJT service, It would come down from Bound Brook/Bridgewater more than likely, as the portion of the line to Somerville has some problems - mostly through Dukes Estate. If that were to ever get off the ground, they would probably take the route from Port Reading Junction northeast on the old Reading line to the connection to the RVL at Polhemous Lane, west of Bridgewater. That way, those "pesky" passenger trains would not get in the way in that busy portion inbetween Port Reading Junction and Bound Brook on the LL. Also, if West Trenton were ever to be built, it would probably be easier to build a bridge over the NS Lehigh Line if they were to go that way, down from Polhemous Lane, and stay out the mess that is PR Junction. They could even go and take the route that is I believe the route of the siding to the former Johns Manville plant in Manville - that current huge parking lot with all those cars...I think its an auction? That connects with the RVL just west of Polhemous Lane, past the dump or whatever that place is. The important thing is both those routes have their own bridges over the river.
Based on the traffic reports this morning with I-78 closed in both directions for 4 miles east of Exit 7 due to many vehicles colliding or sliding off the road, the extension to Exit 7 (or 3) would have been of great value this morning. Ice storms and Jugtown Mountain don't go well together. I agree that staying off of NS would be better for NJT. My suggestion of Exit 7 is based on gaining most of the value for the minimum cost. The extant track is in the immediate vicinity of Exit 7 but the right of way is close to two miles from Exit 3, with essentially no direct or main roads in that direction. West of Exit 7 could be the subject of a second phase.

Your suggestion to using the former Reading passenger connection west of Bridgewater absolutely makes sense, and would allow for the large parking lot at Bridgewater to be used for Flemington and West Trenton trains. I rode on that route - once - from Newark to Reading Terminal a few months before the passenger service was abandoned. Just to do it. Came back to Newark on Amtrak's Montrealer having dinner in the diner.
~Ken :: Fairmont ex-UP/MP C436 MT-14M1 ::
Black River Railroad Historical Trust :: [/url]

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Re: Phillipsburg rail service—Four years, $90 million

Post by michaelk » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:47 pm

Jtgshu wrote:... I believe the route of the siding to the former Johns Manville plant in Manville - that current huge parking lot with all those cars...I think its an auction? ...
not to drag off topic but since you asked...

I believe it is a company that takes vehicles returning off leases and refurbishes them (not sure if they auction after being refurbished- i guess all used cars like that get auctioned though so probably). the lot is HUGE and there are literally tractor trailer carriers coming and going day and night - I've been in the "reading" cinema weekend nights many times when car carriers are coming and going- even thanksgiving weekend... I've often wondered if there could be some market to ship those cars by rail somewhere as it seems too busy and too large to just be for a local area. But i guess the departure points and destinations are so varied so as to not make sense.

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Re: Phillipsburg rail service—Four years, $90 million

Post by 25Hz » Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:10 am

NYS&W142Fan wrote:
25Hz wrote:Oh, i see it now, the old routing that curves its way around alpha. Yea, you'd need a bridge there. The old bridge over 122 where carpentersville roads splits off is still intact, dunno bout structural soundness.... There is room for a second track from that one interchange all the way to the old phillipsburg station without having to run over the old curvy route....
There are two sections where the line is severed. One being where Rt 78 was filled in over it and the piece where the Rt 519 bridge was removed. Greens Bridge, the big stone structure would have to be inspected, but I think they will find it is still sound. Once past Greens Bridge, the NS uses the CNJ RofW into PA. Actually what should be done is for NS to use the LV (curvy route) and NJT to use it's own RofW (CNJ) to P'Burg. At one time there was talk of putting a layover yard near the BelDel tracks where the Penn or LV yard used to be and I think that is still on the books somewhere. With NS looking to double track their line it could get tight in a few places, but it can be done. Also once the service is extended to PA, one logical place to put a new Station on the PA side would be just across the old CNJ Bridge over the Lehigh River where the Freight House used to be. There is a fairly large vacant lot there with room for a small building or shelter and room for parking.
Where is this route 519 bridge? I looked and it dead ends on the north side of phillipsburg...? There's another route that shoots west from hackettstown but that right of way is long dead, lots of build-over....
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Jeremy Zella

Re: Phillipsburg rail service—Four years, $90 million

Post by Jeremy Zella » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:30 am

I think the bridge he was talking about is the one east of the NS (ex-Con) bridge. That one has been gone for some time, so long that in fact I have never heard anyone talk about it being removed, seen pictures of it, and the supports are no longer there (visible, deteriorated, whatever). That would be the key to NJT having their own line again is re-installing the ex-CNJ bridge across I-78.

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Re: Phillipsburg round house turntable

Post by CarterB » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:30 am

25Hz wrote:Something i just noticed.... Looks like the remnants of the turntable and roundhouse are still visible east of the old station building.
One of the two roundhouses and turntables still some traces N 40.68825 W 75.19595. They were right next to each other. http://www.historicmapworks.com/Map/US/ ... psburgh+1/
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Re: Phillipsburg rail service—Four years, $90 million

Post by Jtgshu » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:58 am

25Hz wrote:
NYS&W142Fan wrote:
25Hz wrote:Oh, i see it now, the old routing that curves its way around alpha. Yea, you'd need a bridge there. The old bridge over 122 where carpentersville roads splits off is still intact, dunno bout structural soundness.... There is room for a second track from that one interchange all the way to the old phillipsburg station without having to run over the old curvy route....
There are two sections where the line is severed. One being where Rt 78 was filled in over it and the piece where the Rt 519 bridge was removed. Greens Bridge, the big stone structure would have to be inspected, but I think they will find it is still sound. Once past Greens Bridge, the NS uses the CNJ RofW into PA. Actually what should be done is for NS to use the LV (curvy route) and NJT to use it's own RofW (CNJ) to P'Burg. At one time there was talk of putting a layover yard near the BelDel tracks where the Penn or LV yard used to be and I think that is still on the books somewhere. With NS looking to double track their line it could get tight in a few places, but it can be done. Also once the service is extended to PA, one logical place to put a new Station on the PA side would be just across the old CNJ Bridge over the Lehigh River where the Freight House used to be. There is a fairly large vacant lot there with room for a small building or shelter and room for parking.
Where is this route 519 bridge? I looked and it dead ends on the north side of phillipsburg...? There's another route that shoots west from hackettstown but that right of way is long dead, lots of build-over....
I think ur looking at the wrong line or something dude - and the Line from Hackettstown is very much in service, thats the Washington Secondary. Start at the train station by the bridge. Follow the line that goes southeastward, on the south side of Walters Park. The LV and CNJ parallel each other through here. Once you get to Crestwood Park, the CNJ splits and is on the North Side of the park, the LV (current NS Lehigh Line) to the south of the park. County Road 519 is the first street that crosses the cnj east of the park, also known as 3rd Ave. The line then does a long sweeping S curve to where Route 78 is, and where the RR bridge was never built. Follow the line east, and you will see Warren Glen Road, and just east of there, is where a new connection was built so the former CNJ could be accessed (there were a few customers along the line) and the line from there west through P-burg abandoned so they could build the I78 bridge. As far as I know, other than those missing bridges, there is no encroachment, other than lots of trees. The last train ran in 1984?

BTW, i was using google maps for the views and labels.
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John, aka "JTGSHU" passed away on August 26, 2013. We honor his memory and his devotion to railroading at railroad.net.

25Hz
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Re: Phillipsburg rail service—Four years, $90 million

Post by 25Hz » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:45 am

Ah, ok, i see it now.

So, through alpha, do they need to do anything to bring the line back into service in terms of bridges? I can't quite tell from the map.

I must admit i do enjoy hunting old ROW's on google earth, with actually going there and walking the route being even more fun!
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Re: Phillipsburg rail service—Four years, $90 million

Post by Jtgshu » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:26 pm

The line is intact up to MP60, Ludlow Station road, thats the end of NJT control. From there west, I believe its intact all the way to the connection with the Lehigh Line outside of Bloomsbury, except I believe it was mentioned that at a farmers private Xing the rails are lifted west of the Asbury/West Portal Road bridge. It was mentioned above that there is a missing bridge at the route 519 xing in Alpha (I did not know that until reading above) as well as the obviously missing I78 bridge.

NS was storing cars a few years ago on the line up to the Valley Station Road Xing I believe it was, so it is intact up to that point from the connection to the Lehigh Line.
On the RR, "believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see"
John, aka "JTGSHU" passed away on August 26, 2013. We honor his memory and his devotion to railroading at railroad.net.

CNJ Fan 4evr
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Re: Phillipsburg rail service—Four years, $90 million

Post by CNJ Fan 4evr » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:36 pm

Doesn't NJT actually own the old CNJ in P'burg that NS leases ? I thought that was the case. Maybe not now I'm not sure.If so they could install their own track but then there's the issue of using NS trackage from Green's to Bloomsbury. I think we can forget this scenario. We all know what the answer would be.
Don't get me wrong it would be good to see commuter service again but too much time has passed along with too many bonehead decisions that would make the expense too great for what they'd get out of it.Like said earlier. Might see it when my nephew's grandkids are alive but not us.

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Re: Phillipsburg rail service—Four years, $90 million

Post by michaelk » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:09 pm

CNJ Fan 4evr wrote:...
Don't get me wrong it would be good to see commuter service again but too much time has passed along with too many bonehead decisions that would make the expense too great for what they'd get out of it.Like said earlier. Might see it when my nephew's grandkids are alive but not us.

is there a chart/table someplace of cost/new daily rider of the various rail extensions/reactivations? just guessing, but i'd think as a cost/new rider this would have been the most cost effective. I think it was the most recently killed off and is in the best shape- no?

is it that it would add a much smaller amount of new riders?

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