New Jersey Transit is failing to expand

Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

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Backshophoss
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Re: New Jersey Transit is failing to expand

Post by Backshophoss » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:36 pm

Under Christie,NJT was loaded down with political "hacks" and saw $$$$$ diverted away to cover budget glitches.
NJT was not allowed to expand,it was hamstrung by Christie from the get-go.
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njt/mnrrbuff
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Re: New Jersey Transit is failing to expand

Post by njt/mnrrbuff » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:26 am

Unfortunately, service will not be coming back to Arlington. In fact, there is a proposal to make the old Boonton Line east of Mtc a bike/walking trail. If you live in Arlington and want to use rail to the city, you can always use either the stations in Lyndhurst or even drive to Harrison for the Path. Arlington is not on the same side of the river as NWK.

NJT Rail's current state of quality is poor, especially as what JamesRR said.

EuroStar
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Re: New Jersey Transit is failing to expand

Post by EuroStar » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:43 am

Backshophoss wrote:Under Christie,NJT was loaded down with political "hacks" and saw $$$$$ diverted away to cover budget glitches.
NJT was not allowed to expand,it was hamstrung by Christie from the get-go.
Christie never properly funded NJT, so there were no capital dollars for expansion. Heck, there were not enough for proper maintenance. While this new governor might be well meaning, I have no idea where he will get the money from and he has promised more funding for many other priorities of his. I would not expect any expansion other than the Cutoff to Andover and the light rail to Engelwood to happen in the next 30 years. The first because it is already partially built and the latter because the area is dense enough that it will eventually make sense. The 6 new tracks at Hoboken will likely also happen, as will the Delco lead yard because they have the federal Sandy funds. The Midline Loop is a toast, as is the MOM line. Minor stuff such a high platform here or a siding there could happen too, but nothing big. And as long as NJT is buying ALP45s, there will be no new wire anywhere. And of course, the Gateway might or might not happen depending on politics, but nobody alive today will live to ride a train over the Bergen Loop, so calm down and enjoy the show ...

njt/mnrrbuff
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Re: New Jersey Transit is failing to expand

Post by njt/mnrrbuff » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:12 pm

There is really no need for the loop in North Brunswick since the NJT trains either run push pull or with mus. What is really needed is a new station in N. Brunswick which I believe is supposed to happen. With the new transit oriented development going up where Johnson and Johnson used to be, that will help fuel the ridership at the proposed station. Of course, the future site of the new station is very close to a lot of highways-1, 130, and the Turnpike isn't very far away. The North Brunswick station would be good for those people who not only live in N. and S. Brunswick and in Monroe Twp(no need to backtrack to Princeton Jct). The current layout of the platforms at Jersey Ave station bothers me because there is no eastbound platform. The westbound main line platform needs to be high level.

MOM isn't happening anytime soon. I know that traffic is bad on Rt 9, especially during rush hour, but the 139 bus as well as other bus routes will continue to run up and down 9 to NYC.

Roadgeek Adam
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Re: New Jersey Transit is failing to expand

Post by Roadgeek Adam » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:15 am

njt/mnrrbuff wrote:There is really no need for the loop in North Brunswick since the NJT trains either run push pull or with mus. What is really needed is a new station in N. Brunswick which I believe is supposed to happen. With the new transit oriented development going up where Johnson and Johnson used to be, that will help fuel the ridership at the proposed station. Of course, the future site of the new station is very close to a lot of highways-1, 130, and the Turnpike isn't very far away. The North Brunswick station would be good for those people who not only live in N. and S. Brunswick and in Monroe Twp(no need to backtrack to Princeton Jct). The current layout of the platforms at Jersey Ave station bothers me because there is no eastbound platform. The westbound main line platform needs to be high level.

MOM isn't happening anytime soon. I know that traffic is bad on Rt 9, especially during rush hour, but the 139 bus as well as other bus routes will continue to run up and down 9 to NYC.

I would prefer all of Jersey Avenue be upgraded, but we can't even build a new overpass due to the wires.
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rr503
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Re: New Jersey Transit is failing to expand

Post by rr503 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:05 am

njt/mnrrbuff wrote:There is really no need for the loop in North Brunswick since the NJT trains either run push pull or with mus. What is really needed is a new station in N. Brunswick which I believe is supposed to happen. With the new transit oriented development going up where Johnson and Johnson used to be, that will help fuel the ridership at the proposed station. Of course, the future site of the new station is very close to a lot of highways-1, 130, and the Turnpike isn't very far away. The North Brunswick station would be good for those people who not only live in N. and S. Brunswick and in Monroe Twp(no need to backtrack to Princeton Jct). The current layout of the platforms at Jersey Ave station bothers me because there is no eastbound platform. The westbound main line platform needs to be high level.

MOM isn't happening anytime soon. I know that traffic is bad on Rt 9, especially during rush hour, but the 139 bus as well as other bus routes will continue to run up and down 9 to NYC.
I was under the impression that the loop was less for looping per se, and more to facilitate train turning without having to cross the NEC at grade -- which delays all service on it.

I think before we get into Cutoff and MOM land, NJT really needs to address their existing services. Priority number one should be making Penn function -- so Gateway -- followed by flexibility improvements like a second Waterfront Connection, ME 3t, Passaic Draw 3t, Lehigh 3t, making Hunter a flying connection, N Brunswick loop, etc.

Also, aside from capital, they should be just running more trains on existing tracks. I'm sure most NJT lines could take more than hourly off peak service, and more reverse peak service than they have now. For better or worse, most (like 70+ percent) suburbanites work in the suburbs, and given that most Manhattan commuters already use public transit to get to work, the only way that NJT can significantly increase their ridership base is to cater to intrasuburban travel.

njt/mnrrbuff
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Re: New Jersey Transit is failing to expand

Post by njt/mnrrbuff » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:48 am

The NEC should be getting their twice an hour weekend service throughout those days for the local and semi locals to Trenton. The M&E on weekends should get half hourly service going eastbound in the morning and westbound in the evening with the new trains skipping more stops between NWK Broad and Summit.

EuroStar
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Re: New Jersey Transit is failing to expand

Post by EuroStar » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:09 am

rr503 wrote:I was under the impression that the loop was less for looping per se, and more to facilitate train turning without having to cross the NEC at grade -- which delays all service on it.
I believe that is correct. The need was not to turn the trains around, but to avoid crossing the busy NEC tracks. There other track configurations that work, but all require going under or over the existing tracks and that was deemed too expensive by NJT. Don't be surprised if this gets resurrected a decade or two from now -- what is dead may never die.
njt/mnrrbuff wrote:The NEC should be getting their twice an hour weekend service throughout those days for the local and semi locals to Trenton. The M&E on weekends should get half hourly service going eastbound in the morning and westbound in the evening with the new trains skipping more stops between NWK Broad and Summit.
Neither of those will happen before the completion of the Gateway tunnels. There is no capacity on weekends due to the need for maintenance of the existing tunnels. The most you could hope on the M&E is for reversal of the cuts from about a decade ago -- that is some extra runs to Hoboken, but that requires operational dollars which are sorely lacking.

necrails
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Re: New Jersey Transit is failing to expand

Post by necrails » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:51 am

I have read many times about the weekend capacity issues going into and out of NY Penn. Can someone elaborate on the times needed to make the trip? I understand the tunnel is reduced to a single bore. What I do not know is how many trains per hour (in both directions) can a single bore manage? How many are running through the tunnel now including Amtrak and NJT?

EuroStar
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Re: New Jersey Transit is failing to expand

Post by EuroStar » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:39 pm

The usual claim is 24 trains per hour max with trains going in the same direction (two tunnel operation). That is 12 trains per half an hour. On weekends when one tunnel is out for maintenance, every hour is divided into two halves. First half trains going one way, second half trains going the other way. This does not give you 12 trains in each direction because with one way operation in a tube you do not need to wait for the tube to be empty. With two way operation in one tube you do need to make sure the tube is empty before reversing direction, so now you are probably down to 9 trains in each direction (assuming that when you had 24 trains per tube per hour with unidirectional movements you had 4 trains in the tube, more precisely between Secaucus and NYP, following each other at the same time). Now add a little padding necessary to account for the fact that trains coming in the same direction might not run exactly on time and you are easily down to 6 per half hour that the tube operates in the same direction. Note that you cannot just say, if a train is late and misses its slot then we reverse direction anyway and that late train waits until we switch directions again. That is an automatic 30 minute penalty on a train that is already late. On top of that sets that go into Penn typically just switch ends and go back out -- you penalize that train for being late by making it wait until the next direction switch, now you have no trainset for the outbound run and end up with cascading delays.

necrails
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Re: New Jersey Transit is failing to expand

Post by necrails » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:32 pm

So I learned something, directions are switched on the half hour which makes sense. Now what would be the normal time between trains traveling in one direction? I believe from my last time there there were 2 on the NEC, one on the coast line, one on the morris line and whatever amtrak does. What does that make the total in one direction.

EuroStar
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Re: New Jersey Transit is failing to expand

Post by EuroStar » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:30 pm

You got the calculation right. NJT has 4 trains on average each way during the weekends depending on the time of the day. Amtrak probably has 2 on average again with variation depending on time of day. So we are at 6 on average. Note that the evening weekend schedules assume that the second tube has been reopened after closure during the day.

ryanov
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Re: New Jersey Transit is failing to expand

Post by ryanov » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:52 pm

Where is the ROW encroached upon on the eastern portion of the Boonton line?

I think the best plan would be to extend the Newark Light Rail from Forest Hill to the line through Belleville to Paterson (a block below Washington Ave).

I don’t know why people always mention “you could drive to X place faster.” You could drive lots of places faster. You’d need a car, though, and the patience to want to sit in traffic or put yourself in danger commuting.
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Roadgeek Adam
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Re: New Jersey Transit is failing to expand

Post by Roadgeek Adam » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:39 pm

ryanov wrote:Where is the ROW encroached upon on the eastern portion of the Boonton line?

I think the best plan would be to extend the Newark Light Rail from Forest Hill to the line through Belleville to Paterson (a block below Washington Ave).

I don’t know why people always mention “you could drive to X place faster.” You could drive lots of places faster. You’d need a car, though, and the patience to want to sit in traffic or put yourself in danger commuting.
Both sides are at Mount Prospect Avenue. Fenced off right of way. See here
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ryanov
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Re: New Jersey Transit is failing to expand

Post by ryanov » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:09 am

Oh, alright, just a fence. Technically encroached, but that’s nothing.

I lived in the house that borders the railroad on Summer Ave for a year. We used to park our cars against the fence there. We were encroaching too, I suppose, but it’s nothing you couldn’t remove in a few hours.
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