Lackawanna Cutoff Passenger Service Restoration

Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

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Lackawanna484

Post by Lackawanna484 » Thu Oct 14, 2004 3:10 pm

JoeG wrote:Tri-State--
It's true, NJT could run trains on your proposed schedule. Because of their aversion to speed and to expresses, they won't. They don't even run trains that run express from Morristown to Newark. Dover trains don't pass any stations W of Summit, except maybe Mt Tabor. They have enough traffic on that line to fleet trains like MN Harlem and NH lines do, with each train stopping at a few stations during rush hour, but they will not do it. I don't know where this snail's-pace mentality comes from. Shirley is long gone.
------------------

That's the point I was getting at, too. NJT has cut back on a lot of the express service in the past decade. The Tom Taber (Exp Hoboken to Chatham/Madison), the skip stops in the am (last stops Summit/Sh Hills), the Gladstone trains.

Looking at today;s schedules and comparing them to 1960, '60 is faster on apoint to point basis just about every time.

The old protocols had many trains run express east of Summit, with the locals beginning there. Then, some of these trains ran express east of SO, with locals coming out of South Orange

Butlershops

Post by Butlershops » Thu Oct 14, 2004 3:48 pm

Tri-State Tom wrote: A Cut-Off train eastbound making stops at Morris Plains, Morristown, Summit, South Orange, Newark-Broad and Hoboken would be alot faster than that.
How much are we saying is "a lot." Five minutes? Ten minutes? As more stations are skipped the likelihood of catching up to another train increases. I am positive that is is still possible to travel between Dover and Hoboken in about an hour - so long as nothing else is running.

I also doubt that you would see a stopping pattern as stated above.

Butlershops

Post by Butlershops » Thu Oct 14, 2004 3:54 pm

JoeG wrote:They have enough traffic on that line to fleet trains like MN Harlem and NH lines do, with each train stopping at a few stations during rush hour, but they will not do it. I don't know where this snail's-pace mentality comes from. Shirley is long gone.
There are lots of passengers that do not ride all the way to New York or Hoboken. They only travel between intermediate stops like Morristown-Brick Church and Newark-Millburn.

henry6

If you run it for passengers....

Post by henry6 » Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:04 pm

...rather than lawyers an politicians ("Don't run in the snow. In case you don't make it you won't get sued!) Rationalize, plan, equip, run! .... Why not a Secaucus to NYP two car shuttle or a Secaucus to Hoboken two car shuttle...why not MU's that pull apart and go back to gether at Newark or Summit, or cars that exchange diesel for electric engines (where you can't do MU's) at Dover and or Montlclair Hgts...Hoboken or NYP to Newark, to Summit or Montlclair Hgts. to Dover then local to Stroudsburg or Hackettstown (or Phillipsburgh/Easton and or Allentown). The ways to do it, and do it well, are endless. Don't give in to the way it is done as the way it has to be done; learn from history and the present and apply NJT to the tasks. Contemporary technologies have to be applied to old concepts and old concepts have to be applied to new technologies; don't throw one out on account of the other!

JLo
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Post by JLo » Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:21 pm

Why not a Secaucus to NYP two car shuttle
While it would be nice to see NJT be more creative and responsive to the needs of customers, let's give NJT the benefit of one doubt. The Hudson tunnels are just about at capacity. There are only two tracks between New York and Secaucus. NYP is already a circus at rush, and travel times between NY and points west are already suffering greatly from the congestion. There is no room for ANY shuttles from Secaucus.
"One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor." George Carlin

Tri-State Tom
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Post by Tri-State Tom » Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:00 am

I would expect/anticipate/PRAY that NJT would schedule trains to/from the Cut-Off akin to what is done with MetroNorth service between HOB and Port Jervis.

thebigc
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Location: Port Morris...just barely

Post by thebigc » Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:46 am

Tri-State Tom wrote:I would expect/anticipate/PRAY that NJT would schedule trains to/from the Cut-Off akin to what is done with MetroNorth service between HOB and Port Jervis.
Fugedaboudit!!

Not much goes past Short Hills, Millburn, Maplewood, and/or South Orange without stopping. These days, I guess we could add Brick Church to the "Big Four".

Unless PennDot, like MetroNorth, is really adamant about the scheduling, I'd expect the usual.

Lackawanna484

Re: If you run it for passengers....

Post by Lackawanna484 » Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:42 pm

[quote="henry6] why not MU's that pull apart and go back to gether at Newark or Summit, or cars that exchange diesel for electric engines (![/quote]


That's how DL&W / E-L / Conrail / and NJT ran for 60 years. The wb conductor would close the traps and set up the last two cars of the train for Gladstone service as the train left Short Hills.

At Summit, a trainman would go between that car and the one in front and separate the air hoses, brake lines, couplers. The engineer off an eastbound Galdstone train would board the rear set of cars, the Morristown train would pull away and leave the Gladstone train to go its separate way.

Done right, the split would take about 90 seconds

thebigc
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Location: Port Morris...just barely

Post by thebigc » Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:24 pm

The irony of this is that all this occurred with the old MUs with traditional couplers. Along come the Arrows, with the push-button cut levers, and NJT eliminates the split. Those automatic uncouplers on the Arrows could be troublesome but even using the tee wrench, it shouldn't take more than two minutes to make a cut. And in my experience, the Arrow IIs were the main culprits. The AIIIs were much more reliable in that sense.

Zeke
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Post by Zeke » Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:00 am

Good point Big C, but can you imagine putting them together eastbound during one of our Alaskan express cold snaps with 20 inches of snow on the ground.

Lackawanna484

Post by Lackawanna484 » Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:35 pm

A "DL&W type" split of the MU trains would be a lot more difficult in Summit now, with the high platforms. If they ever wanted to resume the practice, maybe they'd move it to Short Hills where they could get in pretty quickly.

bspinelli
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Transit Money vs. Road Money

Post by bspinelli » Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:42 pm

This from yesterday's Star-Ledger. How fast will this project go from drawing board to construction while the cut-off (a project that addresses this very same problem) and other transit projects languish indefinitely. This from the state that allowed the cut-off tracks to be torn up at the very same time a massive widening project to widen Route 80 was being undertaken.

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/morris/in ... 286680.xml

Tri-State Tom
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Post by Tri-State Tom » Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:15 pm

Yea, but keep in mind that just a few weeks ago, NJT made an embarrassingly bad public case for rebuilding the Cut-Off vis a vis ridership projections and the # of cars that would likely be removed from I-80.

Now, with Frank Reilly retired, this project has lost it's lead proponent !

NJTRailfan
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Post by NJTRailfan » Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:34 pm

Whoa! Here I am down in Ft Campbell, KY for over a month and now everything in NJ is falling apart. The news of Frank Reilly retiring litterally knocked me over. Was it because of the red tape regardign the cutoff that he decided to call it quits? I wouldn't be surprised considerign the way Trento nand PA have been draggign their feets. Even though PA has doen alot more then NJT I feel they can do more. Even though NJ isn't doign much o ntheir side I do feel that PA between Scranton and the Delaware River Bridge can get those tracks up to commuter rail standards and actually start restorign bridges, stations parkings lots and start shoppign around for more equipment liek what MN did beofre they started service on the PJ Line. They shouldn't buy then yet but look at contractors like Bombardier and Alstom. But I do feel that they shoudl start work o nthe signals, upgrading tracks building/restorign stations and the like

This should force Trenton and those in NJT to catch up seeign on how even more seriuos PA is with cutoff service. also commuters alogn Routes 80, 10 and 46 should flood Trenton and NJT with angry letters and phoen calls demandign that they should take action. The politicians in NJ esp that sorry excuse for a governor is there lazing on our dime, so why shouldn't we rattle their cages for our benifit just liek they do to others to get what they want. I'm goign to be really disgusted that if August 2007 coems (when I get out of the Army) and I coem hoem and not one track will be laid down that that is jsut pathetic. either that date or in late 2009 when the new WTC in NYC wil lbe completed.

Hopefulyl logn beofre then that Mt Arlington P/R statio nwil lbe built and servicable as a temp bandaid to the situation complete with parkign garage that is atleast 4 levels.

Lackawanna484

Post by Lackawanna484 » Mon Oct 18, 2004 8:44 pm

NJTRailfan wrote:The news of Frank Reilly retiring literally knocked me over. Was it because of the red tape regarding the cutoff that he decided to call it quits?
A number of longer service Morris County employees were offered incentives to take early retirement. The newspaper said he was in the group, and he took the deal. Good for him.

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