The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

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SecaucusJunction
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Post by SecaucusJunction » Wed May 10, 2017 3:52 pm

I think the biggest problem with 67 is the fact that it is local up the Main Line. No one headed west of Tuxedo wants to ride on a train that is local up the entire Main Line. I've seen business folks ride in private cars back to Route 17, probably not wanting to take the slow train. You are right when you say this probably deters people from riding 64 and 66 because the ride back home in the late evening would be brutal. If at least 67 was express to Route 17 (at least), I think ridership would probably increase on that train and quite a few others.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.

trainbrain
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Post by trainbrain » Wed May 10, 2017 10:57 pm

My opinion is that NJT/MNCR is doing itself a disservice by not capitalizing on the large amounts of people who want to spend an evening in the city, I mean it's the "City that never sleeps" yet you've gotta be out of Manhattan by 7:30 to catch the last express. 64 and 66 are very well timed for this purpose, and they can easily get another inbound by making the return off 49 into a revenue trip. My take is that 67 primarily exists to serve as a Main Line local and they had a set that they needed to get out to Port Jervis, so they just let it take passengers instead of running empty. BTW, weekend train 1739 actually continues to Port Jervis as a deadhead on Sunday evening's according to an employee timetable I got my hands on recently. The same timetable also shows a deadhead X52 on Saturdays that runs from Port Jervis to Hoboken. Figuring this was/is a way to get a set into Hoboken for the weekend should it need maintenance.

Since the local section of 67 has plenty of ridership, having it run as it's own train would allow 67 to be express. Guessing it would need a deadhead return to Hoboken, or just run revenue but primarily just to get the train back. It could also deadhead to Ridgewood and take 68's place on the Bergen Line and actually make all the stops.

While just having 67 be an express would be a big improvement for Port Jervis Line riders, to really get the late evening service right would require an additional train. In this case, 67 would need to be moved up so it would meet 68 either at Harriman or between Sloatsburg and Suffern (instead of at Route 17). A new train departing Hoboken at around 11-11:30 could be well utilized by those leaving Broadway shows or events ending at similar times. To get the equipment for this train, I'm guessing 63 or 65 would change to NJT equipment (like 59-68) and deadhead back to Hoboken following train 68 down. This would free up a Metro North set to run on the new train, which would finish for the night upon arrival at Port Jervis. 41 would likely remain unchanged.

Implementing this service would require an extra Suffern round trip and an extra Port Jervis round trip. Not sure what the cost of that would be, or the additional revenue of people switching to the train who would have used other means of transportation both ways before.

TDowling
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Post by TDowling » Thu May 11, 2017 4:11 am

The meetings for capital improvement on port Jervis service would likely have resulted in public feedback in regards to your post, trainbrain. I imagine that mta may finally be moving forward in improving service in Orange County.

EuroStar
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Post by EuroStar » Thu May 11, 2017 6:17 am

TDowling wrote:The meetings for capital improvement on port Jervis service would likely have resulted in public feedback in regards to your post, trainbrain. I imagine that mta may finally be moving forward in improving service in Orange County.
There are meetings for capital improvement other than the new yard! Where? When?

trainbrain
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Post by trainbrain » Thu May 11, 2017 7:52 am

They already added one Port Jervis Line trip (49, the extra mid day outbound) largely with success I'd think. I've ridden it and while it was by no means full, it had pretty decent ridership. On the other hand, train 47 had very low ridership the one time I rode it. With regards to my post above, I'd think just making 67 an express would be the first step, and if that's successful, look at adding another train.

trainbrain
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Post by trainbrain » Thu May 11, 2017 7:55 am

SecaucusJunction wrote:I think the biggest problem with 67 is the fact that it is local up the Main Line. No one headed west of Tuxedo wants to ride on a train that is local up the entire Main Line. I've seen business folks ride in private cars back to Route 17, probably not wanting to take the slow train.
Keep in mind the last express to serve Route 17 is 63, the 6:57pm Hoboken departure as 65 departing an hour later is first stop Suffern. There isn't even one of those semi express runs after 63, as the last one of those is 1171.

SecaucusJunction
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Post by SecaucusJunction » Thu May 11, 2017 12:14 pm

MTA has plans to increase the amount of trains with the new yard at Campbell Hall, albeit probably 5-6 years away. The plan is for 44 trains per day on the line, which would really be able to increase service to hourly throughout most of the day and late evenings. If most of those trains run express, I think ridership will grow exponentially. The service now is just so infrequent that it is not reliable for anything other than rush hour commuting.

Add in the somewhat frequent service delays and off peak bustitutions, as well as the disruptions in recent memory and you have flat ridership.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.

SecaucusJunction
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Post by SecaucusJunction » Thu May 11, 2017 12:43 pm

I'll also vouch for X52 on Saturdays. I've seen it many times. It usually rolls through Suffern around 1:30pm IIRC.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.

EuroStar
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Post by EuroStar » Thu May 11, 2017 1:29 pm

SecaucusJunction wrote:The plan is for 44 trains per day on the line, which would really be able to increase service to hourly throughout most of the day and late evenings. If most of those trains run express, I think ridership will grow exponentially.
I do not expect NJT to make any capital investments in the line over then next 10 years. Given that can you even slot that many expresses between the NJ locals and semi-expresses?

trainbrain
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Post by trainbrain » Thu May 11, 2017 2:23 pm

Figuring 44 trains means 22 inbound and 22 outbound.
Not 44 each way. Currently there's 14 each way, but one inbound doesn't carry passengers (the return for train 49's set)

That would allow for hourly service, and I think ridership would definitely grow with more frequent, faster, and more reliable service. With a 3rd track between Suffern and Waldwick, and a second track between Sloatsburg and wherever the new yard is going, that should be quite doable. You'd just need to slot in a semi express and express around the same time to pass all the local stops when the line is separate.

DanD3815
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Post by DanD3815 » Sat May 13, 2017 9:15 am

Would this expansion mean double tracked stations/adding a second platform on the westbound side of the Orange County stations??

More frequent express trains with far less stops in NJ would really benefit Orange County, can't wait to have that as an option.

SecaucusJunction
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Post by SecaucusJunction » Sat May 13, 2017 10:33 am

The first step is 3 more sidings. After that would be connections and full double track. These aren't the little sidings that are just a few train lengths long. They're all going to be at least 2 miles long. Either they're trying to make more room for rolling meets, or they are preparing for more freight traffic on the line...
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.

trainbrain
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Post by trainbrain » Sat May 13, 2017 12:07 pm

I think the Otisville siding is about 5 miles long. There's an unused siding near Middletown that's only a few train lengths long, so I think extending that one would help a lot. Long way from Otisville to Campbell hall. If it were up to me, the line would be full double track to the viaduct, and then single track after that with sidings at Otisville, Middletown, and Campbell Hall. That's pretty much at every station and would be fairly easy to schedule around.

The single track section from Moodna to Campbell Hall would be around 9 miles long.

The current Harriman station is a parking lot in the middle of nowhere. It could pretty easily be relocated to behind Woodbury Common which would be within walking distance. If the station were to be located there, there could possibly be a special on Black Friday and other big shopping days that leaves Hoboken stopping only at Secaucus before going nonstop to Harriman (like train 59 does now).

I wonder if the ridership at Port Jervis, Otisville, and Middletown would be high enough to justify a rush hour super express that would only stop at those three stations before going fully express to Secaucus and Hoboken. Similar to what Metro North does on the Hudson Line with an express going nonstop from Grand Central to Beacon. Since those stations would be left out of some of the benefit that the extra yard would have, it's only fair that they would get some kind of improved service too.

SecaucusJunction
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Post by SecaucusJunction » Sat May 13, 2017 5:52 pm

The interesting thing is that they are putting in a siding west of Middletown where service will not be increasing.

The Harriman parking lot was just enlarged so I doubt they are going to move the station. It would make some sense to have the station right at the NYS Thruway for easy access and within a short walk to Woodbury Commons. That wouldn't help the traffic congestion in that area though.

If they were going to choose 3 stations for a super express, they should probably just have thevtrain stop at Harriman, Salisbury Mills, and Middletown and end there. West of there, there isn't demand for a train like that.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.

trainbrain
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Post by trainbrain » Sun May 14, 2017 1:54 pm

SecaucusJunction wrote:The interesting thing is that they are putting in a siding west of Middletown where service will not be increasing.

If they were going to choose 3 stations for a super express, they should probably just have thevtrain stop at Harriman, Salisbury Mills, and Middletown and end there. West of there, there isn't demand for a train like that.
If they're going to put a siding west of Middletown then that probably means that they're going to increase service west of Middletown.

There's already a super express with the Harriman as the first stop west of Secaucus and that's train 50/59. The reason to have a super express going all the way from Middletown is because it would be faster to skip Harriman, Salisbury Mills, and Campbell Hall and give a significantly faster ride to those coming from the 3 outermost stations. If there wasn't the demand for such a trip, then just make an extra train that makes the same stops as 50/59. I'm guessing with the new yard, during rush hour, most Port Jervis trains will be going express after Harriman since the largest ridership stations are Middletown through Harriman.

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