MLV EMU Procurement

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Jtgshu
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by Jtgshu » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:54 am

I love the 47mph speed statistic that is so often thrown out there....yes, padding has added to the time, but the times the trains actually arrive in Trenton is much different (so long as not waiting for an Amtrak or other NJT train to clear up)

First off, NJT and Amtrak make the schedules together. With more folks riding the local trains than ever before, even in the MP54 days, and more trains being run than ever before, dwell times are longer. With more trains being run, with dealing with the disaster that is the NEC signaling, trains get slowed down because they are catching other trains signals. With the amount of track work and maintenance and improvements going on on the NEC, there are delays, especially during off peak hours, due to track work, single tracking or running on the inner tracks requiring low level platforming, etc. It would be great if they could shut the whole thing down for a month and rebuild the whole thing in one shot, but its not going to happen.

there is very rare when a train can simply make it from Trenton to NY without some kind of delay encountered along the way.

Yes push pull is better suited for the NEC. Tell me how using a rapidly accelerating and braking train (an MU) would be good on an express train that runs express for 38 miles from Newark to Princeton Junction? Also, currently with the MUs limited to 80mph, the slower acceleration of the push pull sets gets made up in the higher speed stretches where the trains can stretch their legs. And again, for like the millionth time, the push pull sets (not the 10 car sets obviously) are NOT that much slower than the MUs. Its not like we are talking about the ALP44s anymore. NJT does need to overhaul some of their schedules soon and shorten up some of the travel time inbetween stations because it doesn't have to be timed for a '44 and 10 comets anymore, but thats another topic. The push pull sets are no slouches. But also remember that there is some time added inbetween stations to minimize delays later on. Why run balls to the wall from Trenton To Linden, only to have to sit at Elmora for 10 minutes? Add a minute or two here, there, and it only becomes a minor delay at Elmora for a scheduled overtake.

Better yet, we could run 4 car ALP46A sets all during rush hour. Get down to Trenton in like 45 minutes. 66 percent of the passengers wouldn't be able to ride, but by golly, we got that average speed WAAAYYYY down!!!
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John, aka "JTGSHU" passed away on August 26, 2013. We honor his memory and his devotion to railroading at railroad.net.

amtrakowitz
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by amtrakowitz » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:45 am

I didn't mention Trenton Expresses. The 47-mph average speed was for Trenton Locals, which were more prevalent in the past than expresses. And what expresses there were did have a faster average speed than nowadays, frankly.

AmTransit
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by AmTransit » Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:18 pm

You want to increase the "average speed" of the locals? Decrease the dwell times...then you'll be doing something.
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amtrakowitz
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by amtrakowitz » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:03 pm

Did the NEC dwell times go up due to Shirley Time primarily? If so, then any benefit to building the high platforms was negated as a result.

loufah
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by loufah » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:04 pm

Nasadowsk wrote:Multilevels on Trenton locals? Why would you put a piece of equipment that inherently can't get out of it's own way on a run that demands high performance?
In my experience, a few locals are run with MLs, but the MLs disappear after around 10AM. Maybe they're just leftover from rush hour and are being sent to the appropriate yard to wait until evening rush?

25Hz
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by 25Hz » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:16 pm

Jtgshu wrote:I love the 47mph speed statistic that is so often thrown out there....yes, padding has added to the time, but the times the trains actually arrive in Trenton is much different (so long as not waiting for an Amtrak or other NJT train to clear up)

First off, NJT and Amtrak make the schedules together. With more folks riding the local trains than ever before, even in the MP54 days, and more trains being run than ever before, dwell times are longer. With more trains being run, with dealing with the disaster that is the NEC signaling, trains get slowed down because they are catching other trains signals. With the amount of track work and maintenance and improvements going on on the NEC, there are delays, especially during off peak hours, due to track work, single tracking or running on the inner tracks requiring low level platforming, etc. It would be great if they could shut the whole thing down for a month and rebuild the whole thing in one shot, but its not going to happen.

there is very rare when a train can simply make it from Trenton to NY without some kind of delay encountered along the way.

Yes push pull is better suited for the NEC. Tell me how using a rapidly accelerating and braking train (an MU) would be good on an express train that runs express for 38 miles from Newark to Princeton Junction? Also, currently with the MUs limited to 80mph, the slower acceleration of the push pull sets gets made up in the higher speed stretches where the trains can stretch their legs. And again, for like the millionth time, the push pull sets (not the 10 car sets obviously) are NOT that much slower than the MUs. Its not like we are talking about the ALP44s anymore. NJT does need to overhaul some of their schedules soon and shorten up some of the travel time inbetween stations because it doesn't have to be timed for a '44 and 10 comets anymore, but thats another topic. The push pull sets are no slouches. But also remember that there is some time added inbetween stations to minimize delays later on. Why run balls to the wall from Trenton To Linden, only to have to sit at Elmora for 10 minutes? Add a minute or two here, there, and it only becomes a minor delay at Elmora for a scheduled overtake.

Better yet, we could run 4 car ALP46A sets all during rush hour. Get down to Trenton in like 45 minutes. 66 percent of the passengers wouldn't be able to ride, but by golly, we got that average speed WAAAYYYY down!!!
Of the arrows on expresses, they can keep the schedule, but they typically cannot recover lost time due to their 80 mph restriction. On the other hand i have been on comet and mlv expresses both directions and they can usually get in early if conditions allow, and if there's a delay, like the time an hhp8 crapped out by rahway & amtrak needed one track clear to run the aem protect engine around to the front, we sat for 12 minutes and still made it ahead of the local that left 10 minutes earlier on time. We also beat a coast line train that often got in ahead of us.
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morris&essex4ever
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by morris&essex4ever » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:23 pm

AmTransit wrote:
amtrakowitz wrote:I didn't mention Trenton Expresses. The 47-mph average speed was for Trenton Locals, which were more prevalent in the past than expresses. And what expresses there were did have a faster average speed than nowadays, frankly.
You want to increase the "average speed" of the locals? Decrease the dwell times...then you'll be doing something.
Wouldn't two other reasons average speeds are down today be because there are more stations for trains to stop at and more trains running today than in the PRR days?
"To cure the British disease with socialism was like trying to cure leukaemia with leeches." Margaret Thatcher

amtrakowitz
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by amtrakowitz » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:32 pm

Not exactly. Newark South Street, South Elizabeth and Colonia were open during PRR days, even in the latter half of the 1960s (North Rahway included of course). So there are more or less the same number of stations.

25Hz
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by 25Hz » Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:31 pm

Don't forget Monmouth junction, Adams, Islen, and there were 2 others I forget.
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morris&essex4ever
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by morris&essex4ever » Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:58 pm

amtrakowitz wrote:I didn't mention Trenton Expresses. The 47-mph average speed was for Trenton Locals, which were more prevalent in the past than expresses. And what expresses there were did have a faster average speed than nowadays, frankly.
Did they really?
"To cure the British disease with socialism was like trying to cure leukaemia with leeches." Margaret Thatcher

amtrakowitz
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by amtrakowitz » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:48 pm

morris&essex4ever wrote:
amtrakowitz wrote:I didn't mention Trenton Expresses. The 47-mph average speed was for Trenton Locals, which were more prevalent in the past than expresses. And what expresses there were did have a faster average speed than nowadays, frankly.
Did they really?
Yes they did. Really. In spite of the low platforms, too.
Patrick Boylan wrote:what's Shirley Time?
The schedule padding instituted by former ED Shirley DeLibero, who served in that post for eight years of the 90s. It's a nickname.

morris&essex4ever
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by morris&essex4ever » Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:06 pm

amtrakowitz wrote:
morris&essex4ever wrote:
amtrakowitz wrote:I didn't mention Trenton Expresses. The 47-mph average speed was for Trenton Locals, which were more prevalent in the past than expresses. And what expresses there were did have a faster average speed than nowadays, frankly.
Did they really?
Yes they did. Really. In spite of the low platforms, too.
I find it hard to believe that today's expresses which go 38 miles non-stop from Newark to Princeton Junction and run at 100 mph between Jersey Avenue and Princeton Junction have lower average speeds than the expresses back then.

Also, how are push pulls not better than MU's for the 3900 series trains?
"To cure the British disease with socialism was like trying to cure leukaemia with leeches." Margaret Thatcher

25Hz
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by 25Hz » Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:14 pm

Only trailers with no bathrooms would make sense. First issue is weight, and second is seats. Cab cars have less capacity due to the area behind the cab on the engineer's side being taken up by electronics lockers. and bathrooms take up 8 seats and LOTS of space,
Next stop the square, journal square station next!

Jtgshu
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by Jtgshu » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:03 pm

25Hz wrote:Only trailers with no bathrooms would make sense. First issue is weight, and second is seats. Cab cars have less capacity due to the area behind the cab on the engineer's side being taken up by electronics lockers. and bathrooms take up 8 seats and LOTS of space,
Im fairly certain that NJT is NOT going to not get any bathroom cars or have an entire fleet of cars without toilets. Maybe trailers, but the power cars at least will have toilets. I BELIEVE its in the agreement with the train crews that there be a toilet in the locomotive and on a push pull train, the cab car is considered a loco. They seemed to learn from the Comet 2 rebuilds and not including any bathrooms with them. they bought a LOT of toilet ML cars.

They do take up a lot of seats, but its a necessary evil and not something that NJT is going to not include simply for more seats. Just like I doubt you would ever have the "railfan seat" discussion like Septas SLV's, with any kind of equipment that NJT would buy in the future (of course I could be wrong) but there are just some things that seem to be a given with NJTs equipment, some of which are full cabs, toilets and end doors.

Again, of course, anything could happen, but those are three things I don't see NJT ever really wavering with.

This whole thing is very interesting.....while some folks might think that NJT always pushes the envelope with new designs and equipment and that its a waste of money, (and sometimes and some cases it can be debated....) but someone has to be innovative. And as mentioned earlier, the power car is not a new concept, it goes back to the PRR and Lackawanna and even the CNJ, as I believe I read somewhere that for a while they would throw a trailer inbetween their RDCs, until Budd found out and was like "tsk tsk tsk....."

As much as I love the Arrow 3 MUs and running them, they are old and tired. The bad running ones are starting to outnumber the good running ones. Get a set of good ones, and its great, but get some bad running ones in there, and its a nightmare.
On the RR, "believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see"
John, aka "JTGSHU" passed away on August 26, 2013. We honor his memory and his devotion to railroading at railroad.net.

25Hz
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by 25Hz » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:05 am

It will be weird to see a string of MLV's move on their own... And i have to wonder if they will be qualified for over 100 mph. I will say though as much as i like riding in them, retiring the speed restricted arrows will have a huge positive impact on schedules especially if the fleet is upgraded to 110 or 125 mph running.

In a way also you're saving money over the long term because you have a fleet of 46/a, 45, and pl42's and multilevels, comet 5 vs arrow, 3 comets, 44, 46/a, PL42, F40, GP40-2 and FH's.

10 types of cars/locos down to just 5 (6 if you count comet 4 before they are retired).
Next stop the square, journal square station next!

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