MLV EMU Procurement

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25Hz
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by 25Hz » Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:27 pm

Looking at that photo & taking what you said JT i think i solved most of the problems... You'd only lose 16 seats (8 of which are often unoccupied due to ergonomics) if you took up more space on the lower level for both HVAC and transformers & other equipment. You could put only the condenser coils for the HVAC on the roof on one end and dynamic brake & panto on the other end.

This would allow for unmodified mezzanine level, aside from having a short "hallway" between the bottom of the upper steps and the top of the lower steps....

The HVAC lines could be run through the upper floor or along one or both of the side conduits on the lower or upper level.
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M&Eman
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by M&Eman » Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:17 pm

You could get away with a smaller dynamic brake grid on these cars as there is also potential for regenerative braking through the pantograph. that would allow enough room for the pantograph on the roof.
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25Hz
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by 25Hz » Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:12 pm

I know, you could use a water cooling system, use the heat to warm water for on-board turkish bath.
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Fan Railer
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by Fan Railer » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:51 pm

M&Eman wrote:You could get away with a smaller dynamic brake grid on these cars as there is also potential for regenerative braking through the pantograph. that would allow enough room for the pantograph on the roof.
Yea.... there's no way a dynamic brake grid of more than 200 kW would fit on the roof of an ML without serious modification. And as a note, on average, a fully motored truck is close to 5,000 pounds heavier than a trailer truck of similar design.

25Hz
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by 25Hz » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:41 am

Where is the photo of the mlv emu train?
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25Hz
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by 25Hz » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:54 am

Next stop the square, journal square station next!

Jersey_Mike
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by Jersey_Mike » Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:11 am

You could get away with a smaller dynamic brake grid on these cars as there is also potential for regenerative braking through the pantograph. that would allow enough room for the pantograph on the roof.
You don't need any dynamic brake grids. The HEP load can absorb about 1MW of dynamic braking power which is sufficient for every day operations. This isn't something new for NJT as the ALP-46's are not fitted with dynamic brake grids and while the Arrow III's retained their grids after the rebuild, dynamic brake energy is first dumped into HEP. This strategy saves about 10-15% in energy costs.
NJT does not have the ability to guarantee a push-pull set or an MU set on any particular train on any particular day. It's works out however the equipment pool works. Trends emerge, but there is no way to nail down a set schedule of push-pull/MU only trains.

Any electric set can be assigned to any electric run, with the exception of Arrows on MidTOWN Direct services (with limited exceptions)
Sure it has the ability to, it just doesn't care to. It takes effort and planning and different equipment purchase strategies. Innovation doesn't just mean untested rolling stock designs, it applies to operations and service patterns as well.

AmTransit
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by AmTransit » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:34 am

Hey Jersey_Mike, I was wondering why you're not employed by NJTRO? It seems to me they're doing themselves, and the rail industry in general a great dis-service by not having you on board. It strikes me as extremely odd how someone who obviously knows everything there is to know about railroad management isn't involved in it professionally.
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Nasadowsk
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by Nasadowsk » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:33 am

Sorry, Mike's right here - other RRs have no issues assigning particular equipment to particular runs. The LIRR does it with the DE/DM/MU fleets, Metro-North does it, operators around the world do it. Hell, even Amtrak does it - buy an Acela ticklet, you're not going to be stepping aboard an Amfleet. Even SEPTA, the poster child for dysfunction does it to an extent.

Don't confuse NJT's unwillingness to with inability to.

Jtgshu
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by Jtgshu » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:51 am

Im very confused by why some folks think that NJT can't or won't assign particular equipment for particular runs....they do ALL the time.

NJT does not have any issues assigning particular equipment to particular runs. They have to. The only line where it doesn't really matter what kind of train it is a NY to Trenton train, which can be a push pull set, or a MU set, or a train from Hoboken to Dover, which can be ALP or diesel push pull, or MU.

Every other line has specific equipment requirements, and even car requirements. Coast Line electric must be ALP hauled if going past Matawan, Raritan must be diesel, and currently PL42/6ML (1 7 car ML set), ACL is 4 car Comet sets with usually Geeps. Midtown Direct must be ALP hauled, PJ and PVL should be MN cars and locos, and of course, there are specific trains that need to be certain lengths for passenger capacity and yard storage capacity, especially when yarding in Hoboken Terminal.

Even on the NEC, the trains are supposed to be a certain type of train, like MU or ML or Comet, because they need to turn for another train for another line later in the night, especially with MLs, as they need to end up on a pedestal track for under car inspections. Also, they don't like to run too many long (10 or 12 car) MU trains one right after another because it causes problems with the power on the NEC.

Ive sat in NYP waiting for a certain kind of train to come in so we could take it back out. Take for example a Coast Line train. There are 3 MU trains in the station, but we can't take any of them to Long Branch, so the train is delayed while we wait for a late turn of a Comet or ML set so we can load and go as a Coast Line train. Ive also taken MUs to Woodbridge and we swapped all the passengers and crew and equipment and the MUs went back to NY on an eastbound and the push pulls went back to Long branch on a westbound....

yes, there are a few trains throughout the day where it doesn't matter what equipment the train gets. Some days it can be a 6 car MU set, the next day a 10 car ML set. But those kind of trains are the exception rather than the rule.
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Nasadowsk
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by Nasadowsk » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:58 pm

Jtgshu wrote:
Im very confused by why some folks think that NJT can't or won't assign particular equipment for particular runs....they do ALL the time.
Multilevels on Trenton locals? Why would you put a piece of equipment that inherently can't get out of it's own way on a run that demands high performance? And please, save me the 'bububut the ALP-46As!!!' talk. An 8 or 10 car multilevel train's a dog, period. Maybe if NJT followed best practice elsewhere and put 2 motors per 8 cars*, you'd get somewhere, but with one ALP and 8 multilevels, they just don't accelerate. And who cares what the top speed is if you seldom hit it and stay there.

If you want to see acceptable performance for a train in this day and age, look at the newer MUs overseas, BART, or:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEq72GrwMAY

See, NJT can do it too!

Hell, if they could just get to Arrow levels, it'd be a help...
The only line where it doesn't really matter what kind of train it is a NY to Trenton train
Which has gotten significantly slower over the years as NJT's moved onto slower and slower equipment.
or a train from Hoboken to Dover, which can be ALP or diesel push pull, or MU.
Why the hell would NJT run a diesel to Dover, other than as a positioning move or lack of electric equipment?

Back on topic, Can NJT get a multilevel EMU that's worth it over push pulls? Maybe. I don't see them hitting RER or S Bahn Zurich levels though (Both are on par with the Arrows, which is an accomplishment for the amount of space the actual propulsion system has**), unless they're willing to toss the existing multilevel design and go for something lighter (if that's even possible, which it might not be, though I don't think Snowmobiles, Inc can optimize a design as well as the others can, though the coffin cars are actually pretty decent, but that wasn't a Snowmobiles, Inc design). With an aluminum body and some modern design and some compromises, they could get far better than pushpull performance, though...

*As seen on other push pull systems in the world, notably Zurich, where the stations are farther apart AND the top speed is MUCH lower. And I'm pretty sure the S Bahn's motors are a few hundred HP more powerful, to boot.



** The transformers are above the trucks in the passenger space, along with the converters, the inverters are in a cabinet behind the cabs. It's VERY tight packaging, and only works because motor cars = ~125,000lbs, trailers = ~100,000lbs. Amtrak's 25hz system should help a little bit, though, over Zurich's 16hz system.

Ken S.
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by Ken S. » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:40 pm

Nasadowsk wrote:
Jtgshu wrote:or a train from Hoboken to Dover, which can be ALP or diesel push pull, or MU.
Why the hell would NJT run a diesel to Dover, other than as a positioning move or lack of electric equipment?
I know! I know! Do you have the money to string wire from Great Notch to Denville?

AmTransit
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by AmTransit » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:12 pm

If you think about it, this potential project makes a lot of sense from an equipment standpoint - I only say this because NJTRO, in theory, would only have to purchase a small number of power cars instead of an entirely new MU fleet. Whether it works or not remains to be seen but it's still interesting none the less and I look forward to operating them if they come to fruition.
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AmTransit
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by AmTransit » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:29 pm

Jtgshu wrote:Im very confused by why some folks think that NJT can't or won't assign particular equipment for particular runs....they do ALL the time.

NJT does not have any issues assigning particular equipment to particular runs. They have to. The only line where it doesn't really matter what kind of train it is a NY to Trenton train, which can be a push pull set, or a MU set, or a train from Hoboken to Dover, which can be ALP or diesel push pull, or MU.

Every other line has specific equipment requirements, and even car requirements. Coast Line electric must be ALP hauled if going past Matawan, Raritan must be diesel, and currently PL42/6ML (1 7 car ML set), ACL is 4 car Comet sets with usually Geeps. Midtown Direct must be ALP hauled, PJ and PVL should be MN cars and locos, and of course, there are specific trains that need to be certain lengths for passenger capacity and yard storage capacity, especially when yarding in Hoboken Terminal.

Even on the NEC, the trains are supposed to be a certain type of train, like MU or ML or Comet, because they need to turn for another train for another line later in the night, especially with MLs, as they need to end up on a pedestal track for under car inspections. Also, they don't like to run too many long (10 or 12 car) MU trains one right after another because it causes problems with the power on the NEC.

Ive sat in NYP waiting for a certain kind of train to come in so we could take it back out. Take for example a Coast Line train. There are 3 MU trains in the station, but we can't take any of them to Long Branch, so the train is delayed while we wait for a late turn of a Comet or ML set so we can load and go as a Coast Line train. Ive also taken MUs to Woodbridge and we swapped all the passengers and crew and equipment and the MUs went back to NY on an eastbound and the push pulls went back to Long branch on a westbound....

yes, there are a few trains throughout the day where it doesn't matter what equipment the train gets. Some days it can be a 6 car MU set, the next day a 10 car ML set. But those kind of trains are the exception rather than the rule.
I don't get it either JT, you have people here making comments about rail operations like they've been doing it for 30 years, but yet have never set foot on the railroad as an employee (maybe in their wet dreams they have) - just because they invoke the names Amtrak, NJ Transit, LIRR, and walk around with a hand-held scanner, a fanny pack, and a hat with the herald of their favorite "fallen-flag" they think they know how to railroad...
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Hawaiitiki
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Re: MLV EMU procurement official

Post by Hawaiitiki » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:14 pm

I know the prospect of scrapping the arrows might be a sore topic for some traditionalists but yeesh.

Anywhooo

People who are claiming that this idea has no precedent are way off. Here's vintage Swiss set using roughly the same methodology NJT is suggesting to use these new MLVs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SBB_H ... Pendel.jpg

All but one(the NEC) of NJTs Electrified Lines are better suited for EMUs than Push-Pulls anyway.
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