Northern Branch HBLR (was DMU proposal)

Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

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Irish Chieftain

Post by Irish Chieftain » Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:14 pm

alewifebp wrote:we at least do have very good bus service in to NYC. We can decry it all we want, but the bus does offer a better door to door option
Buses don't give door-to-door service; WADR, please don't paint it up like they do. Only taxis would give door-to-door.

Further, the buses in eastern Bergen County will never do what the trains can—move faster than the traffic instead of with the traffic, carry more pax per vehicle and per trip, perform better in inclement weather, ad libitum...

Since the NJT bait for the DMU thingy was to include dual-mode DMU service later on for the NYC service, that would entail an upgrade later on, of course (I noted the Roger Williams RDC in reference to this). I doubt, however, that will ever be in the offing, especially when George Warrington "moves on" and a new ED takes the reins at NJT...
Nasadowsk wrote:You mean the 6 or 7 200+HP fans in there aren't gonna do it? And they can inlet or outlet, and route the air around in a few interesting ways too. With the high ceiling in the tunnel, and fans all over, venting out a a GTW 2/6 or like car's fumes would be a non event, and in any case, they're a boatload cleaner than the stuff EMD and GE sell, given they have to meet actual emissions standards over in Europe
That's completely irrelevant, since the HBLRT is electrified. There never was a station within the tunnel during NYC/NYO&W days, either.

Nasadowsk
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Post by Nasadowsk » Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:15 pm

So what? The station's ventilation system is beyond capable of sucking out diesel exhaust. And if it can, then there's no reason not to run DMUs through there, at least from a technical standpoint. Operationally? Well, it might/might not make sense, but that's another story. Given the overkill the ventilation system is in there for electric operations (and they want a high level of monitoring in them too, which suggests 24/7 operation, NOT the emergency operation that they claim it's supposaedly for), I wouldn't be surprised at all if NJT does in fact expect to run DMUs through there.

Of course, run DMUs, connect at Tonelle Ave, then run express to Hoboken, neato - instant passenger friendly system that's also out from under the FRA's thumb (if only partially).

Irish Chieftain

Post by Irish Chieftain » Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:20 pm

Not really. The whole point of the DMUs is to keep the Northern Branch a full FRA rail operation. They aren't going to run FRA DMUs on a LRT line. Why run DLRVs on it as well? I recall that you are no proponent of "diesel under wires"...quite the opponent, in fact.

The Bergen Arches are sitting idle anyhow. Restoring Northern Branch service via that route and building a new connector into Hoboken would be a good use for that route.

MickD
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Post by MickD » Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:09 am

But now wouldn't no venilation prevent direct DMU service into NYC? If so, this is still a 2 and in some cases 3 transfer trip to destinations in Manhattan. The Arches are the the only route that makes any sense, as from Hoboken the connections to wherever in Manhattan are better.

Irish Chieftain

Post by Irish Chieftain » Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:31 pm

But now wouldn't no venilation prevent direct DMU service into NYC?
That's why there's the proposal being floated for the dual-mode DMUs...which, as I said before, probably won't really materialize...

Douglas John Bowen
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NJ-ARP: 'Back and forth' is telling, striking.

Post by Douglas John Bowen » Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:10 am

One can review this thread and see the confusion the Northern Branch has generated among knowledgeable railfans, rail advocates, and rail observers.

Can anyone wonder, then, why Bergen County elected and appointed officials are even more befuddled?

Lackawanna484

Re: NJ-ARP: 'Back and forth' is telling, striking.

Post by Lackawanna484 » Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:29 am

Bergen County has been factionalized on many issues over the years. From trash to development to the cross-county railroad line. Even the Xanadu project has its elected advocates and opponents (hint "think Sunday retail closing laws").

braves
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Post by braves » Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:53 am

Why not extend the Northern Branch DMU up to Northval where the track now ends instead of Tenefly, this would give riders in that Northern part of Bergen County with rail service.

Douglas John Bowen
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NJ-ARP: Assemblyman also seeks Northvale.

Post by Douglas John Bowen » Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:13 am

Assemblyman John Rooney (R-39) has advocated extending HBLRT to the New Jersey/New York border, much as braves does.

Rooney is one of the more outspoken voices on the Northern Branch matter, and (in NJ-ARP's view) is one of, if not the only, useful member on the now nearly-useless Assembly Light Rail Transit Panel. For one thing, Rooney actually can point to LRT when he sees it. That's more than some of his esteemed panel colleagues can do.

JoeG

Post by JoeG » Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:58 am

I am one of the knowledgeable railfans thoroughly confused by the DMU issue.
The DMUs don't yet exist, as far as I know. I get the idea that they would be compliant with FRA rules for rolling stock that could run in general service, so they could run through the Hudson tunnels.
But why couldn't the also nonexistent electric cars that would run on the Northern branch be designed to be FRA compliant? Sure, they would cost more, but they would be electric.
DMUs may have been the only way to get the River LINE built. (I rode it for the first time the other day and it's pretty nice, but needs more double track and some express trains....) However, Bergen County does not need more diesel pollution. The most populous county in NJ needs electric traction. If it needs FRA compliant electric LRVs, so be it.

Jtgshu
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Post by Jtgshu » Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:24 am

I think the question that needs to be asked is that the diesels CAN'T run through the EXISTING Hudson River tunnels - but will they be able to run through the NEW Hudson river tunnels? That i think some people are missing that possibility and although I think its unlikely, NJT may be hinting at that possibility - it would clear some things, up, no?
On the RR, "believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see"
John, aka "JTGSHU" passed away on August 26, 2013. We honor his memory and his devotion to railroading at railroad.net.

Irish Chieftain

Post by Irish Chieftain » Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:02 pm

Doesn't matter, because DMUs won't be able to operate in Penn Station NY.

Jtgshu
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Post by Jtgshu » Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:20 pm

true, but could they operate in the new 34th st. station???
On the RR, "believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see"
John, aka "JTGSHU" passed away on August 26, 2013. We honor his memory and his devotion to railroading at railroad.net.

JoeG

Post by JoeG » Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:31 pm

I am still waiting to hear what advantage DMUs have over EMUs, other than not requiring catenary. A FRA-compliant electric EMU could be built at least as easily as a DMU.

Irish Chieftain

Post by Irish Chieftain » Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:50 pm

DMUs are not usually compared to EMUs, but to single-unit diesel locos. Like you noted, though, before you run an EMU, you gotta string the wires.
could they operate in the new 34th st. station?
Are they really going to build that station?

Assuming they do, and if they build it with sufficient ventilation to allow DMU operation, you can bet that the next question will be "does it have sufficient ventilation for non-dual-mode diesel locos as well?" and you'll see people having visions of PL42ACs in "34th Street Station"...not that it will help insofar as getting diesels to/from Sunnyside Yard...

Besides, it's still all talk. Remember, they're talking about "dual-mode" DMUs for this theoretical future operation into Manhattan.

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