ALP-45-DP Usage/Service Patterns

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Fan Railer
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Re: ALP-45-DP Usage/Service Patterns

Post by Fan Railer » Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:49 am

Lets look at actual numbers here, guys.

http://www.cat.com/cda/files/1799601/7/ ... l%20LR.pdf
Page 63 of this sheet shows the 3512C HD engine (with similar rating to the one installed in the ALP-45DP) pulling about 102 gallons per hour at rated load (1800 rpm & 2200 hp). So two of them together pull around 205 gallons at rated load (1800 rpm & 4200 hp).

Compare this to a 16 cylinder 645, which pulls around 170 gph at 900 rpm (3000 hp),a 12 cylinder 710, which pulls around 150-160 gph at 900 rpm (3200 hp), and a 16 cylinder 710, which I read pulls around 190 gallons per hour at 900 rpm (4300 hp).

And to clarify, low speed diesels are below 200 rpm. Medium speed is from 200 rpm to 1000 rpm. High speed is anything above that.
Last edited by Fan Railer on Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

ACeInTheHole
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Re: ALP-45-DP Usage/Service Patterns

Post by ACeInTheHole » Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:10 am

Too much data in the morning,.. Thanks Fan Railer... Haha

sixty-six

Re: ALP-45-DP Usage/Service Patterns

Post by sixty-six » Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:59 am

The engines are putting out 1200rpm at idle. You can quote theories and numbers and ratings all you want, but the fact of the matter is an ALP-45-hauled train is visiting the fuel pad more often than a Geep or PL42 train.

Sirsonic
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Re: ALP-45-DP Usage/Service Patterns

Post by Sirsonic » Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:32 am

Good to see all the data on this. All I have to go by is the fuel gauge...
Proven Theory #2 - If you don't work for the railroad, you don't know more than the people who do, no matter how many years you've hung around the tracks, or how well you think you understand railroading.

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ACeInTheHole
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Re: ALP-45-DP Usage/Service Patterns

Post by ACeInTheHole » Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:40 am

Fuel gauge is more realistic anyway, those data charts are more for constant load conditions as in full throttle for an hour or idling for an hour or what have you, in reality the locomotive is going to be facing a variety of load conditions that are always changing, that is the real determinant on how often said engine visits the fuel pad, not charts and data.

Adirondacker
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Re: ALP-45-DP Usage/Service Patterns

Post by Adirondacker » Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:16 pm

beanbag wrote:Fuel gauge is more realistic anyway, those data charts are more for constant load conditions as in full throttle for an hour or idling for an hour or what have you, in reality the locomotive is going to be facing a variety of load conditions that are always changing, that is the real determinant on how often said engine visits the fuel pad, not charts and data.
I need to gas up my car once a week. I fill it until it's full and the low-fuel idiot light comes on a week later. My neighbor fills his tank until it's full and his idiot light comes on two weeks later. Who uses more fuel?

I drive a small car with a small fuel tank. The neighbor has a one ton pickup truck. With a fuel tank that is the size my trunk. If I fill the tank when the idiot light comes on I can drive about 350 miles until the idiot light comes on again. If he fills his tank when the idiot light comes on, he can drive about 350 miles until the light comes on again. Who uses more fuel?

"the real determinant on how often said engine visits the fuel pad" is meaningless unless you know the size of the fuel tank and how many miles the vehicle can travel until it needs to be filled again.

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Re: ALP-45-DP Usage/Service Patterns

Post by ACeInTheHole » Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:54 pm

Adirondacker wrote:
beanbag wrote:Fuel gauge is more realistic anyway, those data charts are more for constant load conditions as in full throttle for an hour or idling for an hour or what have you, in reality the locomotive is going to be facing a variety of load conditions that are always changing, that is the real determinant on how often said engine visits the fuel pad, not charts and data.
I need to gas up my car once a week. I fill it until it's full and the low-fuel idiot light comes on a week later. My neighbor fills his tank until it's full and his idiot light comes on two weeks later. Who uses more fuel?

I drive a small car with a small fuel tank. The neighbor has a one ton pickup truck. With a fuel tank that is the size my trunk. If I fill the tank when the idiot light comes on I can drive about 350 miles until the idiot light comes on again. If he fills his tank when the idiot light comes on, he can drive about 350 miles until the light comes on again. Who uses more fuel?

"the real determinant on how often said engine visits the fuel pad" is meaningless unless you know the size of the fuel tank and how many miles the vehicle can travel until it needs to be filled again.
The amount of miles that the vehicle can travel though also depends on how said vehicle is driven. You run the wheels off a 45 notching it out all the time, its going to come back to the fuel pad alot more often than if you ran it gingerly, I was using my comment to agree with sirsonic that the best data is real time looking at the fuel gauge. I was not saying that in terms of Geep vs. ALP45 or whatever, I meant that comment as in amongst themselves. There is no way a 45 would even be able to touch a Geep in terms of time between visits to the fuel pad unless it was assigned more routes where it is allowed to run in E-mode, its down 900 gallons in fuel capacity to said Geep and has two high speed diesels vs, one low speed engine, diesel vs. diesel, no chance for the 45 in that contest.

Sirsonic
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Re: ALP-45-DP Usage/Service Patterns

Post by Sirsonic » Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:28 pm

Im not talking about how often a particular model locomotive needs to be fueled. I'm saying, quite definitively, an ALP-45 will use more gallons of fuel to go the same distance with the same train as compared to a GP40 or a PL42. If you wish to disagree with this statement, please provide proof from when you ran an ALP-45 and observed it using less fuel.
Proven Theory #2 - If you don't work for the railroad, you don't know more than the people who do, no matter how many years you've hung around the tracks, or how well you think you understand railroading.

Rest in peace Jtgshu.

ACeInTheHole
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Re: ALP-45-DP Usage/Service Patterns

Post by ACeInTheHole » Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:33 pm

I do not disagree with you sirsonic.

Fan Railer
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Re: ALP-45-DP Usage/Service Patterns

Post by Fan Railer » Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:27 pm

Sirsonic wrote:Im not talking about how often a particular model locomotive needs to be fueled. I'm saying, quite definitively, an ALP-45 will use more gallons of fuel to go the same distance with the same train as compared to a GP40 or a PL42. If you wish to disagree with this statement, please provide proof from when you ran an ALP-45 and observed it using less fuel.
Either way, all of the above is true for the 45.

The numbers I gave above prove the engine is more fuel hungry than anything previously operated by 10%-30%, and also, addressing the fueling, since the tank capacity is smaller by 800-1000 gallons (1600 vs 2250 and 2500), they will most definitely be visiting fueling pads more often, regardless of their efficiency comparison to the other locomotives. I don't think anyone's disagreeing with anyone else here. The question is just in the numbers themselves.

morris&essex4ever
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Re: ALP-45-DP Usage/Service Patterns

Post by morris&essex4ever » Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:13 pm

So are the 45's gas guzzlers in diesel mode?
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ACeInTheHole
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Re: ALP-45-DP Usage/Service Patterns

Post by ACeInTheHole » Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:29 pm

morris&essex4ever wrote:So are the 45's gas guzzlers in diesel mode?
75% more fuel use than a Geep for a given trip. I think sirsonic answered that adequately.

25Hz
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Re: ALP-45-DP Usage/Service Patterns

Post by 25Hz » Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:40 pm

beanbag wrote:
morris&essex4ever wrote:So are the 45's gas guzzlers in diesel mode?
75% more fuel use than a Geep for a given trip. I think sirsonic answered that adequately.
Yea, but then it's also developing way more pulling power at the rails even with HEP load compared with the geeps which have no HEP draw off the prime mover. I would not call it a gas guzzler, i'd call it just another tier above the geeps in power output, and the fuel use i guess matches that. Just like an ALP-46a pulls more juice than an ALP-44 from the wire, but it also has way more muscle going on.

We are so used to these sleek simple all in one unit locomotives, back in the day you had A and B units, mother/slug configurations, turbines that ran on coal to produce electricity etc etc etc. You gotta compromise somewhere, be it fuel consumption or some other aspect of design if you want power and speed at these upper levels.
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ACeInTheHole
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Re: ALP-45-DP Usage/Service Patterns

Post by ACeInTheHole » Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:49 pm

25Hz wrote:
beanbag wrote:
morris&essex4ever wrote:So are the 45's gas guzzlers in diesel mode?
75% more fuel use than a Geep for a given trip. I think sirsonic answered that adequately.
Yea, but then it's also developing way more pulling power at the rails even with HEP load compared with the geeps which have no HEP draw off the prime mover. I would not call it a gas guzzler, i'd call it just another tier above the geeps in power output, and the fuel use i guess matches that. Just like an ALP-46a pulls more juice than an ALP-44 from the wire, but it also has way more muscle going on.

We are so used to these sleek simple all in one unit locomotives, back in the day you had A and B units, mother/slug configurations, turbines that ran on coal to produce electricity etc etc etc. You gotta compromise somewhere, be it fuel consumption or some other aspect of design if you want power and speed at these upper levels.
Oh no of course I'm not bashing the 45, I agree with you 25 they are amazing locomotives and there's no question these things can PULL, watching 4503 push those multilevels so easily erased any doubt in my mind that these things have serious horsepower. However it's those high speed diesels that drink up the fuel, then again if it had a regular 710 block or something in it, it would have been over the weight limit per Amtrak requirements for 125 mph operation, so in reality trading the weight for the fuel was a better move, considering their complexity and capability, if their only real compromise is a big fuel appetite, I would say job well done on Bombardiers part. I was wholeheartedly expecting an unreliable mess from these locomotives to be honest when I first heard what they were trying to design and the technologies they were trying to integrate, I was not expecting them to be even half this good. Besides, Sandy put more than half of them out of commission, any full time New York service operation isn't in the cards until they get the others running again (and in the case of the dozen NJT doesn't own fixed, tested and accepted), and as such, we're discussing things that aren't going to happen for a long time.

srock do you know if 4512 came back from Texas?

Jtgshu
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Re: ALP-45-DP Usage/Service Patterns

Post by Jtgshu » Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:11 pm

An ALP45 will not "idle" it has to run at higher RPMs to provide HEP and keep the various systems of the locomotive going (I don't remember the exact RPM, but 1200 does sound familiar, like Jimzim said). A Geep will idle. Yes, the separate HEP motor will be running, but thats small compared to the V16 645. When a Geep is at a station stop, its idling - a 645 uses relatively little fuel when idling I wanna say a handful of gallons an hour, I don't remember. Believe it or not, most times, a locomotive is NOT in Notch 8. Of course, depending on the track, the speeds, the distance of station stops, etc, it might be in notch 8 for longer periods, but when braking and when at a station stop, its idling or at lower RPMs (if in dynamic braking mode). thats one of the reasons why a PL42 uses much more fuel than a Geep as well, the big motor has be running at like 450RPMs to provide HEP at all times (notch 3), while a Geep has the big motor at idle, about 200-250 RPMs and the little HEP motor a relatively small 6 cylinder motor, running providing HEP. Over the course of hundreds of station stops a day, and laying over inbetween runs, the difference inbetween idle and 450 RPMs adds up quickly!!!

Again, 25hz, you can't necessarily compare fuel use to power output. a 45 is developing that power with 2 engines. A '42 is developing it with one engine. both have the same power pretty much. By what your saying they should be exactly the same, and they aren't.
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