NYSW Passenger Service Restoration

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uzplayer
Posts: 433
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by uzplayer » Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:40 pm

dano23 wrote:No I meant Wyckoff to Waldwick/Ridgewood.

And 1950 was total one way riders projected by the 1996 study to be utilizing the service by 2010, not the year 1950.

You cant just say make X the new terminus. There needs to be space for a yard that can hold 5 full trains. Sparta wasn't chosen because somebody liked it, it was chosen because it was the only place where they could find the room to create the facilities. Even in the initial study, Sparta was projected to be one of the lowest utilized stations with Butler being the least.
Sorry... It's been a long day. I misread what you posted. Thank you for clarifying.

Despite the study, this is 16 years later. I'm pretty sure the patterns have changed from when that study was done.

I think they are calling for a Stockholm terminus this time around...but yes. They need space for the yard. That'll definitely be a challenge with the highlands act in effect.

Roadgeek Adam
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by Roadgeek Adam » Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:20 pm

uzplayer wrote: Sorry... It's been a long day. I misread what you posted. Thank you for clarifying.

Despite the study, this is 16 years later. I'm pretty sure the patterns have changed from when that study was done.

I think they are calling for a Stockholm terminus this time around...but yes. They need space for the yard. That'll definitely be a challenge with the highlands act in effect.
Think? I posted the confirmation of that call several pages back.
...they are solid plastic, so don't settle for imitation.

uzplayer
Posts: 433
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by uzplayer » Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:24 pm

Roadgeek Adam wrote:Think? I posted the confirmation of that call several pages back.
Yes... You did... I stand corrected.

cruiser939
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by cruiser939 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:20 am

dano23 wrote:These posts are way too long now for me to want to jump in lol.
I agree with you and know that I'm half of the problem (the smaller half of course). I get tired after writing one of those responses and usually have to take a nap or something.
To loosely quote Capt. Jack Aubrey from the movie Master and Commander: "NJT runs a railroad, not a private yacht! WE DO NOT HAVE TIME FOR YOUR DAMNED HOBBIES, SIR!"

Originator of Jeff Smith rules!
Cruiser "Awesome Justice Train Freedom America" 939

cruiser939
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Location: Waiting 47 minutes at New Brunswick for my train

Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by cruiser939 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:35 am

uzplayer wrote:
cruiser939 wrote: Please do not selectively quote me and uzplayer pay attention here too. What I've said and what you assumed are to separate things. I said "You don't seem to understand that I am well aware of the traffic situations. Not just there but at several key areas around the state. It's kind of part of my job." Does the word monitor appear there at all? No. Therefore when when you or uzplayer thinks that I'm saying that monitoring traffic patterns is part of my job, you are both wrong. I even further clarified what I meant by adding "All I said was that I am aware of where there are traffic problems around the state and that knowledge is part of what allows me to effectively do my job". Somehow though, you conveniently left that part out of your post and that isn't good enough for uzplayer because he still assumes that I said monitor somewhere in my initial response. Oh well...
Actually, yes. It did. I think you should re-read what you posted.

And I will continue to selectively quote you.
You really aren't good at this reading comprehension thing are you? Here is what I said:
cruiser939 wrote:You don't seem to understand that I am well aware of the traffic situations. Not just there but at several key areas around the state. It's kind of part of my job.
and here is your following response:
uzplayer wrote:If monitoring traffic situations is part of your job, then to be blunt, you are not doing your job.
I again would love for you to point out exactly where I said that monitoring traffic situations is part of my job. All I said twas that being aware of them plays a part in my job. Furthermore, even if I had said that monitoring traffic was part of my job, I'd love for you to tell me how you drew your original and misguided conclusion that I wasn't doing my job. Monitoring implies nothing about correcting AFAIK.
To loosely quote Capt. Jack Aubrey from the movie Master and Commander: "NJT runs a railroad, not a private yacht! WE DO NOT HAVE TIME FOR YOUR DAMNED HOBBIES, SIR!"

Originator of Jeff Smith rules!
Cruiser "Awesome Justice Train Freedom America" 939

cruiser939
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Location: Waiting 47 minutes at New Brunswick for my train

Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by cruiser939 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:07 am

I've tried to condense this a little so people don't bleed from the eyes when they read it. Also, I could tell that JT was getting jealous of our message lengths.
uzplayer wrote:
cruiser939 wrote: Flustered? I'm not sure how going back and forth with you proves that. Btw, "back and forth" implies a two way conversation. If you assume that I'm flustered because I keep responding wouldn't that mean you are equally flustered? I've never claimed to be an end all authority on the railroad industry here, but my status as an actual employee does mean I know more about what goes into planning, constructing, and operating a service than you do as a railfan.
As I said, I study the alternatives and come to a conclusion backed by the facts available to me. There are always additional pieces of information which should actually be public.. As NJT is a public entity, and with its studies falling under the "Freedom of Information Act," maybe you should start posting some links and pdf's to these studies to back up what you are saying.
Study? All you've done is said there was traffic and sighted a census report which showed (very obviously) that people commute towards NYC for work. I'm not sure what studies you are talking about here at NJT, as I've made no mention of any. If you want some files, you are welcome to submit an OPRA request and pay the associated fee (I believe).
uzplayer wrote:
cruiser939 wrote:I've already explained to you both publicly and via pm why the census data that you use as your only evidence is not proper. Essentially, all the massive spreadsheets that you linked to showed was that generally, people commuted from NW NJ towards NYC for work. Wow! That really adds a lot to this matter, as if everybody here didn't already know that. The majority of people in northern NJ share that same commuting habit. I guess it's time that we link every single town with a rail network because the spreadsheet said that people commute towards NYC.
Ok then... If you believe that you have access to better, more reliable data, then please feel free to post a direct link to this thread. Otherwise, stop quoting so-called informational pieces and backing it up by the fact that you are an "NJT employee." There are plenty of NJT employees on this forum that make a much more concise and logical argument versus you. Do you see me going back and forth with anyone else in this message board other than you? That should tell you something.
Better, more reliable data? All the spreadsheet shows is that people commute towards NYC. That's a fact, I'm not disputing that. I'm simply saying that if that is your only basis for starting a service then every town deserves a train line towards NYC since the data is the same for just about every town in northern NJ. The only time I've brought up my employment with NJT is to say that I have a better idea than you about the cost associated with starting up and running a service than you do.
uzplayer wrote:
cruiser939 wrote:No, I'm not keen on taking them. They're stupid and do nothing to bolster your points. I challenge you to run face first into a brick wall repeatedly. This will demonstrate what trying to reason with you on rr.net is like. Keen on taking that one? I know there's traffic there, what will me sitting in it accomplish?
And here is why you do not garner any respect from me. If it were the fact that you presented your arguments like a normal person, i'd be more than happy to entertain your facts. But when you make remarks like this, that is where you lose my respect. Do you see anyone else other than yourself acting as belligerent as you?
It should have been blatantly clear by now that I have more important concerns in life than whether I have your respect.
uzplayer wrote:
cruiser939 wrote:Again, what will me sitting in traffic accomplish? If you have politicians doing it then why do you need me to? I don't influence what the politicians do. It's vice versa, they determine what I do. Give them your stupid challenges, not me; it's pointless.
You have absolutely no idea what goes on in community efforts and advocacy. I'm not going to explain it to you again. Do some research on the internet and then come back and see me.
Still not sure about this retort. If my company takes it orders from politicians, shouldn't you be talking to them and not me?
uzplayer wrote:
cruiser939 wrote:Do you not see the waste in this? There are dozens of traffic problem stops all over the region. Will you be as blindly loyal to all of them as you are for this project? After all, I'm sure the census data will show that many people arer trying to commute towards NYC.
No.. I do not see any waste in conducting a study...provided that it is done on-time, on-budget and delivers some sort of improvement.

The census data is one of the only sources I have to go off of. Again, you mention there are many so-called hidden NJT studies. If you are so keen and claim to have the insider knowledge you have, then please, enlighten us. Otherwise, you are all talk.
I have never claimed to have secret or undisclosed documents. I defy you to prove otherwise. I have only claimed to have inside information about the cost associated with starting up and running a service which I have shared before with this forum and yourself. No exact figures were given because every situation is different. I can draw on past projects and studies and use them as benchmarks.
uzplayer wrote:
cruiser939 wrote:To respond to your misguided first point, why would simply saying the words terrorist group imply that my picture should go up next to Bin Laden's? I didn't mention any by name nor did I comment on any's cause. I'm not sure where you're going with the whole security clearance thing but I'd venture a guess that most people who discuss terrorism in the world do not hold such a clearance. I'm not sure what your speculations on "other motives" could be but you sure come off sounding like the most idiotic person I've interacted with here.
As for your mention of terrorist groups on Facebook, i'm still taken aback that you could even bring this type of thing into conversation. Shows the type of person you are.
This makes no sense and you sound like an idiot. I've explained why I mentioned terrorists groups. Why don't you be a sport and explain why it was so egregious instead of being incredibly vague about it?
uzplayer wrote:
cruiser939 wrote:To your second point, if you are truly in the marketing field then you should know to be wary of social media. Yes, there can be good groups; just like there can be bad groups. I'm not saying that your group is bad but the fact there is a group with "fans" doesn't mean that your cause is a good one. That was my point about there being support for terrorist groups on facebook pages. Just because people click a "like" button shouldn't be interpreted as meaning that those people are correct or know what they're talking about. There are groups on facebook that both support and condemn Casey Anthony, are they both right or good? That a newspaper mentioned your page doesn't mean it's credible nor does it mean that it isn't. To illustrate my point, there's a facebook page supporting Muammar Gaddafi that has the exact same number of supporters as your group. Does this group hold the same weight as yours? What if some random journalist was to do a piece on the controversy and mentioned that there are those who actually support the guy and than mentioned this facebook page. Would that then give credibility to the cause as you claim getting mentioned in an article did for your group? Furthermore, just because someone "likes" you on facebook doesn't mean that they know wtf is even going on. I can choose to "like" a page about stem-cell research. In so doing can the author of the page site me as a knowledgeable person in the cause simply because I clicked a button. If so (which is what you seem to be doing) they would be sorely mistaken as I really don't know too much on the subject nor do I have any real opinions; all I did was click a button. You're reading way too much into this social media thing in my opinion.
I am very well aware of the issues with social media marketing...moreso then you will ever be.
Oh boy, the pot calling the kettle black. Now who's on their "high horse"
uzplayer wrote:The page was "liked" mostly by residents... so the credibility is there. Again, it takes a small initiative to start moving forward towards the bigger picture. There are some good people that want to volunteer their time to the cause...so I am not worried about getting a following for this. People will work to make this happen.
Well why didn't you say they were residence before? That totally adds so much credibility.... Come on, seriously? If my town decided to build a huge sewer treatment plant for some reason and I clicked "like" on a facebook page then according to you I'm a credible supporter of the cause solely because I live in the town. You have to realize how foolish that sounds.
To loosely quote Capt. Jack Aubrey from the movie Master and Commander: "NJT runs a railroad, not a private yacht! WE DO NOT HAVE TIME FOR YOUR DAMNED HOBBIES, SIR!"

Originator of Jeff Smith rules!
Cruiser "Awesome Justice Train Freedom America" 939

trollyFoamer
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by trollyFoamer » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:18 am

Cruiser, I haven't posted very much, and to be honest I don't get on railroad.net very much anyway, but one of the chief reasons is because when I do, at least in the NJT forum, virtually all the time it's chock full of cases where you arrogantly insult other folks and tear apart somebody else's opinion. Even if you have facts to back yourself up I don't think there's any reason for you continuously to be so disrespectful. I'd have a different opinion if you weren't so consistently nasty. I joined railroad.net about 2 years ago and maybe I'm mixing you up with somebody else who has a monorail cat avatar, but I remember posts from that guy a lot like your current ones. They were the major reason why I didn't come back until a couple of weeks ago.

The way you're treating uzplayer here is really not much different from the way I've seen you treat virtually every other user who appears to be a railfan.

I have noticed posts from people who seem to be NJT employees and sometimes those posts indicate that they think you're really knowledgeable and they enjoy reading your posts. My guess is that you probably have some management position and you are aware of who those posters are, even though you don't supervise them, and they might figure it doesn't hurt their jobs if they try to placate you with decent posts.

I'm sure there might also be folks outside NJT who enjoy seeing you tear apart and ridicule other guys, but for me at least these past couple of weeks of reading your posts has once again made me decide it's not worth my while to bother participating, at least not in the NJT forum.

NYSW3022
Posts: 83
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by NYSW3022 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:48 am

trollyFoamer wrote: I have noticed posts from people who seem to be NJT employees and sometimes those posts indicate that they think you're really knowledgeable and they enjoy reading your posts. My guess is that you probably have some management position and you are aware of who those posters are, even though you don't supervise them, and they might figure it doesn't hurt their jobs if they try to placate you with decent posts.
Actually what it is, is that he was the man on the grassy knoll and these other employees know it so they keep placating him in fear of the Illuminati silencing them. You know, that makes more sense then what you said, because as you clearly are aware, people having differing opinions on an interwebs railfan message board is the leading cause of layoffs in this country.

blockline4180
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by blockline4180 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:22 pm

Hahaha, good ol Nick11a is going to love this one!!
~Steve Pellettiere
Co-Moderator: DL&W/Erie/EL Forum
"Each of us makes his own weather, determines the color of the skies in the emotional universe which he inhabits."

Roadgeek Adam
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by Roadgeek Adam » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:34 pm

blockline4180 wrote:Hahaha, good ol Nick11a is going to love this one!!
That's an understatement. ;)

Dano23: By chance you don't happen to have the study on paper already, do you?
...they are solid plastic, so don't settle for imitation.

uzplayer
Posts: 433
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2004 2:02 am

Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by uzplayer » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:37 pm

cruiser939 wrote:You really aren't good at this reading comprehension thing are you? Here is what I said:
cruiser939 wrote:You don't seem to understand that I am well aware of the traffic situations. Not just there but at several key areas around the state. It's kind of part of my job.
and here is your following response:
uzplayer wrote:If monitoring traffic situations is part of your job, then to be blunt, you are not doing your job.
I again would love for you to point out exactly where I said that monitoring traffic situations is part of my job. All I said twas that being aware of them plays a part in my job. Furthermore, even if I had said that monitoring traffic was part of my job, I'd love for you to tell me how you drew your original and misguided conclusion that I wasn't doing my job. Monitoring implies nothing about correcting AFAIK.
I'm very well aware of what you said. By saying it's part of your job, you imply that you monitor traffic patterns...whether that's through information that comes to your desk based on a study where you continue to munch on cheeto's and gain weight, or whether you actually try to get exercise and drive these roads, that would denote how you monitor traffic patterns...but you imply that it is your job to know traffic. That's how I read it. That's all there is to it.

nick11a
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by nick11a » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:27 pm

Folks,

It is important to note that attacks and flames are not allowed. Differences of opinion are. Do you now realize that we are arguing what Cruiser939's job is? I am not here to babysit you.
~Nick O.: Moderator: NJT Rail

Moderator of the "widely popular" NJT Rail Forum! What once was first is now seventh!

uzplayer
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by uzplayer » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:33 pm

cruiser939 wrote:Study? All you've done is said there was traffic and sighted a census report which showed (very obviously) that people commute towards NYC for work. I'm not sure what studies you are talking about here at NJT, as I've made no mention of any. If you want some files, you are welcome to submit an OPRA request and pay the associated fee (I believe).
You have to actually count the people...which is something that obviously you do not grasp. You also have to understand such things as consumer behavior, where economic opportunities lie and what it would take for people to get direct and easy access to these opportunities. But considering you have not mentioned any of those items and I have, I don't expect you to grasp those key fundamental items.
cruiser939 wrote:Better, more reliable data? All the spreadsheet shows is that people commute towards NYC. That's a fact, I'm not disputing that. I'm simply saying that if that is your only basis for starting a service then every town deserves a train line towards NYC since the data is the same for just about every town in northern NJ. The only time I've brought up my employment with NJT is to say that I have a better idea than you about the cost associated with starting up and running a service than you do.
I never said that every town deserves rail service. But while we are on the subject, there IS a law that states every town in New Jersey requires a mass transit alternative. Look it up.

You mention you have a 'better idea' of the costs associated with starting and running a service and also imply that you have some sort of knowledge of traffic patterns and volume. Well... that data and information HAS to come from somewhere which once again, denotes that you have access to data and information which WE the PUBLIC do not. So, once again, enlighten us. Show us the data, case studies, white papers, or even articles that cite that this proposed solution is a bad idea. Otherwise, your credibility is just as much as the terrorist groups you quoted you know of on Facebook.
cruiser939 wrote:It should have been blatantly clear by now that I have more important concerns in life than whether I have your respect.
Well, if that's the case, then that would imply you have no respect for any NJT rider, citizen, or for that matter, anyone who posts here. If that is the case, why should I treat you with respect? Do you think I should treat you exactly the way you treat me or others here?
cruiser939 wrote:Still not sure about this retort. If my company takes it orders from politicians, shouldn't you be talking to them and not me?
It's called a multi-pronged attack. The citizens support the service, NJT supports it, the politicians then need to support it.
cruiser939 wrote:I have never claimed to have secret or undisclosed documents. I defy you to prove otherwise. I have only claimed to have inside information about the cost associated with starting up and running a service which I have shared before with this forum and yourself. No exact figures were given because every situation is different. I can draw on past projects and studies and use them as benchmarks.
You have not given any real hard numbers. Plus, considering you have the "knowledge" that has to come from more than the costs associated with starting a service. Case studies, white papers, articles, etc...even the studies you mention contribute to your knowledge. Rather than citing a reason and wrapping it around a rude remark, try backing your facts. I don't read every single post you make throughout this board. On the other hand, considering you try to get into an argument with me everywhere I post, i'm wondering what your motives are.
cruiser939 wrote:This makes no sense and you sound like an idiot. I've explained why I mentioned terrorists groups. Why don't you be a sport and explain why it was so egregious instead of being incredibly vague about it?
It's just a really bad example. You really have to read what you post. Those posts might make sense to you...but when others read them, they get a whole different impression. Put yourself in other people's shoes and see how they would interpret what you wrote.

And for the record, the more you respond, the more you look like a moronic idiot that is probably close to being fired from his (or her) job at NJT.
cruiser939 wrote:Oh boy, the pot calling the kettle black. Now who's on their "high horse"
Actually, I do. And unlike you, I can actually cite data and information to back my views up. Furthermore, unlike you, if someone DOES have a difference of opinion, while I try to disprove that opinion, I also respect it and I state that. I also cite when I am incorrect (which I have a couple of times to others if you have paid attention.)
cruiser939 wrote:Well why didn't you say they were residence before? That totally adds so much credibility.... Come on, seriously? If my town decided to build a huge sewer treatment plant for some reason and I clicked "like" on a facebook page then according to you I'm a credible supporter of the cause solely because I live in the town. You have to realize how foolish that sounds.
Foolish? I know these residents. They cited their support for the service and they want to help spread the word. Does that not say there's a credible movement forming?

I tell ya. You are giving NJT employees a bad name right now. I know there are better NJT employees out there...and I have even talked to them directly here and outside of this board. At the end though, you are just plain outright rude. That's all there is to it.

uzplayer
Posts: 433
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by uzplayer » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:00 pm

trollyFoamer wrote:Cruiser, I haven't posted very much, and to be honest I don't get on railroad.net very much anyway, but one of the chief reasons is because when I do, at least in the NJT forum, virtually all the time it's chock full of cases where you arrogantly insult other folks and tear apart somebody else's opinion. Even if you have facts to back yourself up I don't think there's any reason for you continuously to be so disrespectful. I'd have a different opinion if you weren't so consistently nasty. I joined railroad.net about 2 years ago and maybe I'm mixing you up with somebody else who has a monorail cat avatar, but I remember posts from that guy a lot like your current ones. They were the major reason why I didn't come back until a couple of weeks ago.

The way you're treating uzplayer here is really not much different from the way I've seen you treat virtually every other user who appears to be a railfan.

I have noticed posts from people who seem to be NJT employees and sometimes those posts indicate that they think you're really knowledgeable and they enjoy reading your posts. My guess is that you probably have some management position and you are aware of who those posters are, even though you don't supervise them, and they might figure it doesn't hurt their jobs if they try to placate you with decent posts.

I'm sure there might also be folks outside NJT who enjoy seeing you tear apart and ridicule other guys, but for me at least these past couple of weeks of reading your posts has once again made me decide it's not worth my while to bother participating, at least not in the NJT forum.
Thank you. I am starting to share the same viewpoint as you. There are other places where people like him do not exist, act as rude, or placate opinions like that.

waldwickrailfan
Posts: 1842
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by waldwickrailfan » Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:11 pm

uzplayer, he's not trying to win the argument. he works for NJT and knows a lot more than almost all of us. i would believe Cruiser, Jim, jt, just to name a few, to some other people, at least in this forum. there is no need to argue with employees. it is most likly pointless.
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