NYSW Passenger Service Restoration

Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

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trainfreak
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Location: Somewhere Between Wantage, NJ. and Williamsport, Pa.

Post by trainfreak » Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:43 pm

I would have to say there are about two locals that go up to Butler. Then there are the two road trains on monday wednesday and fridays that run the entire divsion.
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uzplayer
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Post by uzplayer » Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:47 pm

Viable to run to Vernon: Yes - 90% of commuters here commute to the immediate metro area (I.E. Bergen/Passaic/Hudson) or NYC + reverse service during the day would take traffic off the roads.. Especially during the winter months.

Viable to run on intersection of 515/23: Yes - Currently they have installed a park and ride in the intersection of 515 and 23 on the parking lot of that restaurant (whatever the name is.) It just happens to be along a stretch of the NY&SW line. Lot is full every morning and commuting on 23 since they put in that park and ride seems to have gotten better.

Major NIMBY opposition only exists in Sparta. I actually took a drive through that area and I do see why they dont want passenger rail service. The majority of the town is full of mansions.

Outside of Sparta, you'll encounter supporters for the project. Vernon is the equivalent in terms of population and type of income to Sparta. The one difference is that people here are smart and know that rail service will benefit the area.

NIMBYkiller
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Location: Port Washington

Post by NIMBYkiller » Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:12 pm

I'm in agreement with most of the people here. Screw Sparta. They're the only idiots that oppose the project and NJT is gonna let that get the best of them. C'mon! Make w/e necesary improvements to the line that'd allow for operating of both freight and passenger trains during the same time frame(is the line double tracked already?). Just start the damn service already. NJT/MN have a yard in Port Jervis, right? Store the trains there. Hell, maybe have some runs begin in Port Jervis. If not, then start in Vernon(still have trains stored at Port Jervis, it'd save on building/maintaining a new yard).

If NJT wants, they can put a small station in Sparta(lil slab of asphalt, small little bus shelter/waiting room thing, hell, maybe even a TVM) and just leave it to decay. If people start using it, improve it. Simple as that. Just ignore the idiots of Sparta and run the service!

MickD
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Location: Dennisport,Ma

Post by MickD » Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:33 am

Why not just bypass Sparta altogether. It's a win-win for the parties concerned. I don't get it; restore the line from Hawthorne-Hackensack where whether or not patronage will justify service is, I believe, questionable & leave line west of Hawthorne, where there is already a customer base for service into Hoboken/SJ with only a MAYBE in the future...Boy, That is FORESIGHT!!
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Greg
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Location: West Orange, NJ

Post by Greg » Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:19 am

Correct me if I am wrong but it appears to me that the major reason this project is not moving forward is the inability of NJT and the NYS&W to arrive at a purchase price for the ROW that is suitable to both parties and not Sparta's anti-reactivation stance. It seems that this project can move forward rather quickly, depsite the issue of Sparta not wanting rail service, once the details of a fair purchase price are worked out, by not stopping in Sparta.

trainhq
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Post by trainhq » Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:34 pm

I think NJ Transit could probably make some kind of reasonable deal to buy the ROW if they really wanted to. The answer, in my opinion, is that they don't really want to. They have too many other major projects, MOM, Scranton, ARC, W Trenton to worry about with much more enthusiastic constituencies that will serve more people. They're dragging their feet on NYS&W because they don't want to allocate the money to do it with all these other projects looking for $$$. I wouldn't expect them to seriously look at this line for five more years, if then, when some of the other projects are much further along.

uzplayer
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Post by uzplayer » Sat May 01, 2004 9:51 am

From what I have seen, the line is single-tracked through 23. However, the majority of the line would need little to no modification to have some passenger service running. The only real major thing they'd need to do is some station refurbishing, as there are old stations already located on the stretch including Vernon. In theory (and correct me if i'm wrong) NJT can run the Colorado DMU's on the line without much disruption on a limited service schedule for now, and expand the service and rail capacity as needed. That's usually the best way to do business.. Start small and expand your way up.

BlockLine_4111
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Location: Northern NJ

Post by BlockLine_4111 » Sat May 01, 2004 8:54 pm

The way I (would like to) see it would be as follows.

Phase I
Fast-cycle one train set back & forth between Butler & Paterson.
Connect w/Main Line for destinations to the east.
Phase II
Fast-cycle 2 train sets back & forth between Butler & ST.
Connect @ ST for destination anywhere.
Phase
Run multiple sets direct to Hoboken (if capacity exists @ Butler).
Phase IV
Expand service into NY State (Warwick, Middletown, or Port Jervis).

Surplus equipment exists with the ex-CNJ GP40Ps and Comet Is. Since the Comet I cabs are non-compliant they could put a Geep at each end of the Comet I trainset.

Again the equipment is there and the yards too (e.g. Butler & Port Jervis).

uzplayer
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Post by uzplayer » Sat May 01, 2004 11:52 pm

If you use the yard capacity at Butler and Port Jervis, then there should be enough storage space for trainsets for this line. Add to that running up to Warwick, and you'll have a lot of happy commuters. On the way stop at Vernon, Hardyston, Butler, and other towns down the line, and I guarantee you'll take off a big chunk of traffic from the roads.

BlockLine_4111
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Location: Northern NJ

Post by BlockLine_4111 » Sun May 02, 2004 9:34 am

I need a good estimate of running time between Campbell Hall station and 23/515 JCT. say with 2 stops (e.g. Warwick & Vernon) tossed in.

IIRC Campbell Hall is west of the 'connector'. The "connector" is called Hudson Sec. or something other ? Yes, no ?

With all the curves on this route a long term solution would be to have a dieselized version of the Acela.

uzplayer
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Post by uzplayer » Sun May 02, 2004 10:48 am

Interesting.. If you goto www.nysw.com and look at the system map, it's interesting to see exactly how the route is laid out. I compared it with a Mapquest map (which for some reason is calling the route Conrail) and the whole route itself goes up to Syracuse NY.

I think i'm going to attempt to do a mockup of the route just for kicks.

Irish Chieftain

Post by Irish Chieftain » Sun May 02, 2004 11:03 am

Conrail used to own the L&HR IIRC, as well as the other NY state rails that NYSW runs on. The NYSW line east of the L&HR junction ought not be labeled "Conrail" though.

uzplayer
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Post by uzplayer » Sun May 02, 2004 12:48 pm

Oh I know.. I wouldnt dare question the accuracy of Mapquest until now (well screw it.. They're never accurate anyway..)

It's interesting though how they have that loop in the route.. I guess they would need to put a stop in Ogdensburg/Sparta.

BlockLine_4111
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Location: Northern NJ

Post by BlockLine_4111 » Mon May 03, 2004 2:40 pm

IIRC the NYS&W had a more direct connector to the L&HR North via their Hanford branch from somewhere in Sussex County to NY State.

cjvrr
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Location: Morris County, NJ

Post by cjvrr » Mon May 03, 2004 3:17 pm

Block,

You are correct. The Hanford Branch which split off the main at Beaver Lake decended the hill on a steeper grade to Ogdensburg and the turned west and went across the valley on a high fill. The track then turned north toward Franklin. It connected with the L&HR in Franklin right near where CP "Zinc" currently is today.

The line used by the L&HR from Franklin to the zinc mine in Ogdensburg was originally the NYS&W's line.
I need a good estimate of running time between Campbell Hall station and 23/515 JCT. say with 2 stops (e.g. Warwick & Vernon) tossed in.
Current running times;

Cambell Hall to Warwick - 60 minutes
Warwick to Sparta - 40-50 minutes
Sparta to Butler - 50-60 minutes

so Sparta to the intersection of Route 23 / 515 figure - 30 minutes

Just for comparison by car the quickest route, Route 207, to route 17A to route 94, then to 515 is 34 miles long and takes just under 1 hour.

I still don't see the benefit of service beyond Newfoundland or Stockholm. It will take some traffic off the roads, but it will not make a huge difference.

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