Hurricane Sandy

Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

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DutchRailnut
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Re: Hurricane Sandy (issues and recovery time)

Post by DutchRailnut » Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:02 am

You can talk all you want, so what your gone do, build a parallel spare railroad ?, move MMC to a mountain ?. store locomotives in ziplock bags?.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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MariusP
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Re: Hurricane Sandy (issues and recovery time)

Post by MariusP » Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:12 am

DutchRailnut wrote:You can talk all you want, so what your gone do... store locomotives in ziplock bags?.
Hmmmmmm. Do they make them that big?

djlu
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Re: Hurricane Sandy (issues and recovery time)

Post by djlu » Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:44 am

I saw the news from the sfgate news post up top and if accurate that's good. But can't NJ Transit post this on their web site or put some sort of link to the audio of that so people can hear it.

I really think that the information distribution from NJ Transit is really much worse than the MTA for example. I won't even mention PATH.

uzplayer
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Re: Hurricane Sandy (issues and recovery time)

Post by uzplayer » Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:50 am

Honestly, I have to agree with the critics. While I appreciate the hard work going into restoring services, I'm surprised that an operation such as NJT rail does not have some sort of redundancy in place.

cobra30689
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Re: Hurricane Sandy (issues and recovery time)

Post by cobra30689 » Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:51 am

DutchRailnut wrote: move MMC to a mountain ?
Dutch....you've been around a long time. Did any of the PRR/PC folk you came across back in the day ever mention the Hackensack jumping up and getting into Meadows Yard to the extent it did in this storm? I have a feeling it didn't. I'd be willing to bet when NJT built the ROC they had little or no idea that damage would ever be this severe.

DutchRailnut
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Re: Hurricane Sandy (issues and recovery time)

Post by DutchRailnut » Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:07 am

even if MMC were not partialy flooded, the rest of railroad is still a mess (see slideshow on NJT site).
As for redundancy, nice word, but it does not exist on a railroad, specialy one paid for with tax payer money.
There are a lot of Monday morning quarterbacks here on these forums, who would have trouble running their Lionel around a Christmas tree after a storm like this... just sayin...
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

Retired Triebfahrzeugführer. I am not a moderator.

northjerseybuff
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Re: Hurricane Sandy (issues and recovery time)

Post by northjerseybuff » Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:01 pm

Why not keep a couple of towers as backup? I know WJ and Denville are MOW offices. Could they be used as backup if needed?
"I'm an analog man in a digital world"

morris&essex4ever
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Re: Hurricane Sandy (issues and recovery time)

Post by morris&essex4ever » Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:01 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:even if MMC were not partialy flooded, the rest of railroad is still a mess (see slideshow on NJT site).
As for redundancy, nice word, but it does not exist on a railroad, specialy one paid for with tax payer money.
There are a lot of Monday morning quarterbacks here on these forums, who would have trouble running their Lionel around a Christmas tree after a storm like this... just sayin...
But parts of the NJCL, ML and RVL were good enough for some service Friday had the ROC not been down.
"To cure the British disease with socialism was like trying to cure leukaemia with leeches." Margaret Thatcher

Matt Johnson
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Re: Hurricane Sandy (issues and recovery time)

Post by Matt Johnson » Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:44 pm

morris&essex4ever wrote: But parts of the NJCL, ML and RVL were good enough for some service Friday had the ROC not been down.
The NJCL only down to Woodbridge, but looking at the damage to the south, particularly in the South Amboy area, I'm thinking it could be months before service is restored there. I'm not sure how it compares to the Irene damage to the Port Jervis line last year, but how long did it take to get that route back into service? I seem to recall it might've been a couple of months.

EuroStar
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Re: Hurricane Sandy (issues and recovery time)

Post by EuroStar » Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:00 pm

Matt Johnson wrote:
morris&essex4ever wrote: But parts of the NJCL, ML and RVL were good enough for some service Friday had the ROC not been down.
The NJCL only down to Woodbridge, but looking at the damage to the south, particularly in the South Amboy area, I'm thinking it could be months before service is restored there. I'm not sure how it compares to the Irene damage to the Port Jervis line last year, but how long did it take to get that route back into service? I seem to recall it might've been a couple of months.
It took MetroNorth about 3 months to restore the Port Jervis Line. If I recall correctly the trains ran after Thanksgiving, but they still had a lot of work to do for another 5-6 months.

Any news on the the M&E being restored Monday? Or MB?

Also, can someone teach me something about operations: are trains allowed to be stored on main lines in emergency situations such as Sandy? I do not recall ever seing trains stored on main lines the way NYC Sybway does on express tracks.

sixty-six

Re: Hurricane Sandy (issues and recovery time)

Post by sixty-six » Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:27 pm

Jersey_Mike wrote:
Thanks for telling us how to run a railroad, Mr. Railroad Employee!!!! If dispatchers were unavailable, like you say, who's going to issue the Form D's? Running over interlockings with no power requires the switches to be blocked and spiked, taking people away from repairing the hardest hit areas. You can't run push-pull service with 15 cars because the MU signal degrades after 12 cars. But hey, you obviously know more than those who work here, so thanks for coming in!
While dispatchers are unavailable at their computer workstations at ClubMed, the cell and landline phone networks are still largely functional (or if not then high frequency radio) so they can meet anywhere with a white board and implement a manual block system communicating with temporary block operators stationed at block limits. Yes, you would spike and wedge power operated points at affected interlockings, Amtrak has had to do this during several recent snow storms. The reduced capacity would be offset by using longer trains and combining the engines from multiple trainsets on the front to a pull-pull service with engine reversal at terminals or having extra engines live in tow on the rear to provide HEP and to pull the train in the opposite direction upon reaching the terminal.

It's lovely how quick you are to just throw up your hands in surrender instead of trying to think of ways to get service running. Railroads in China wouldn't have even stopped service during the storm. Go America and its can't do attitude.
Oh yea, cause running trains into areas with washouts is a great idea. Running trains into conditions that can disable equipment is a great idea. Good ideas, Mr. Railroad Employee!

25Hz
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Re: Hurricane Sandy (issues and recovery time)

Post by 25Hz » Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:56 pm

By preventative measures i mean flood barriers for the waterways & flood walls for the yards and rights of way that are vulnerable.

Do you really want to hear about these yards & tunnels getting flooded again after seeing how much chaos it's causing?

I mean look at PATH. This is their longest shutdown ever that i can find a record of. Their whole system was totally trashed by flooding. It's pure luck they had the flood doors put in 2 years ago or we'd be looking at a near total rebuild of the traction electrical system & signal system, much of which is new but not turned on/hooked up yet.

Did you see the photos of south ferry station, and the brooklyn battery tunnel? I mean look at the temporary subway map. A lil bit stronger of a storm and the subway wouldn't be running at all.

A little stronger of a storm and NYC would be a total and complete disaster with water in all the subway tunnels and in NYP. you can't bustitute yourself out of that one. The hudson & essex county waterfronts clearly need flood walls, as do the 4 lower boroughs of NYC, plus barriers at the kill van kull, east river going into long island sound, outer harbor and at the south end of the east river.

It's time to get real about flood prevention measures, and fast.
Next stop the square, journal square station next!

neroden
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Re: Hurricane Sandy (issues and recovery time)

Post by neroden » Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:35 pm

Some parts of the NY metro area need floodwalls; I can't think of another way to protect lower Manhattan, or the infrastructure around Penn Station NY or Sunnyside Yard, and those are not reasonably relocatable.

But several of the less-highrise-filled sections of the metro area should be cleared of permanent residents. The various barrier islands need to be allowed to *do their job* as barrier islands, which means not filling them with housing and roads, and keeping people on the land *behind* the barrier islands. This applies to the Rockaways, the islands south of Long Island, and the barrier islands of New Jersey. Within New York City, the areas of the Gowanus Canal and Newtown Creek should be re-naturalized to absorb water.

Hoboken Terminal is an implausible object to start with. It's built on short pilings for goodness sakes! Even though it's an entertaining historic building, it should probably be shut down and replaced with something on higher ground. It made sense when it was dumping people onto ferries, but that isn't the primary use any more. There's been too much construction in flood plains. It needs to stop.

The problem of the rail lines between the Palisades and the far side of the Passaic River is a difficult one. That area gets flooded from the ocean and from the rivers, and is subject to high winds during storms as well. It's hard to see a reasonable route even if you go quite far north or south.

One thing is clear: the Harlem Line needs to be reconnected along high ground to the B&A (whether it follows the old Harlem Line route, or perhaps a new, fast, direct route); having all of the routes out of Manhattan be floodprone is simply not a good idea.

millerm277
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Re: Hurricane Sandy (issues and recovery time)

Post by millerm277 » Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:09 pm

neroden wrote:But several of the less-highrise-filled sections of the metro area should be cleared of permanent residents. The various barrier islands need to be allowed to *do their job* as barrier islands, which means not filling them with housing and roads, and keeping people on the land *behind* the barrier islands. This applies to the Rockaways, the islands south of Long Island, and the barrier islands of New Jersey. Within New York City, the areas of the Gowanus Canal and Newtown Creek should be re-naturalized to absorb water.
Realistically speaking, that's a completely lost cause unless some event happens that completely destroys the islands to foundations. You can't go demolish homes that are still standing and structurally sounds on the beach without fighting a battle you're going to lose. And you can't go tell their next door neighbors who's house DID wash away, that they can't rebuild even though there's a house next-door.

What you can do, is restrict further development so there will be less damage if there is a next time, make the building codes as tough as Florida's for coastal homes, etc. Pass the laws ensuring the state can do whatever work to the dunes it wants, regardless of it's impact on your view, etc. You might be able to get away with taking back a row or two of houses in some towns. But more than that isn't going to happen. Running eminent domain battles with thousands of people who have a lot of money, is going to result in nothing ever happening.

jp1822
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Re: Hurricane Sandy (issues and recovery time)

Post by jp1822 » Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:37 pm

Matt Johnson wrote:
morris&essex4ever wrote: But parts of the NJCL, ML and RVL were good enough for some service Friday had the ROC not been down.
The NJCL only down to Woodbridge, but looking at the damage to the south, particularly in the South Amboy area, I'm thinking it could be months before service is restored there. I'm not sure how it compares to the Irene damage to the Port Jervis line last year, but how long did it take to get that route back into service? I seem to recall it might've been a couple of months.
I wonder if this storm and its damage will give NJT the final excuse to cut service back to Long Branch......even though there are greater infrastructure issues to deal with north of Long Branch and really bad between Matawan and Woodbridge.

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