Triboro RX Proposal

Discussion relating to the past and present operations of the NYC Subway, PATH, and Staten Island Railway (SIRT).

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DogBert
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Re: Triboro RX Proposal

Post by DogBert »

They have mostly talked about this as a subway line, so it's nice that they are finally coming to reality (where there's no way that would work).

Probably the simplest, dare I say only way, to run passenger trains along this route is with commuter rail style equipment or DMUs. There's still a huge problem of where to place the stations, and build them. They love to say Ditmars would be a natural connect to the N/Q (soon to be W) trains, but you'd have to either widen the viaduct (demolishing buildings to do so) or have a single track station up there (using the space where the 4th track was for the platform).

Fresh Pond/Fremont... I imagine that would be much more switching at night, which will make the NIMBYS lose their minds.

Jeff Smith
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Re: Triboro RX Proposal

Post by Jeff Smith »

OPINION: BrooklynEagle: com

Haven't read anything on this in a minute:
The Triboro Line may seem great — but it probably won’t happen

A proposal for a Brooklyn-Queens-Bronx rapid transit line that would use existing railroad tracks and share them with freight lines, introduced by Regional Plan Association in 1996, was given a boost this June when Brooklyn State Assemblymember Latrice Walker introduced a bill that directed the MTA to study its feasibility.
...
Key to the Triboro proposal, according to the RPA website, is the idea that today’s subway system, built to connect the outer boroughs with Manhattan, is inadequate for the growing number of people who don’t work in Manhattan but work in Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx (we’ll leave Staten Island out of this for the time being).
...
Under the proposal, the Triboro would share tracks with a number of existing rail lines — the New York and Atlantic’s Bay Ridge Freight Line up to Fresh Pond Junction, CSX tracks in Queens, and tracks used by Amtrak’s main line over the Hell Gate Bridge and into the East Bronx. RPA points out that freight and passenger rail have shared tracks in other cities, such as Chicago.

The line would have intersections with subway lines in Woodside, Bushwick, East New York, Brownsville, Flatbush, Midwood, Borough Park and Bay Ridge. The question is, what planned stations in Brooklyn and Queens can be destinations in their own right? And how likely is the proposal to succeed?
...
Next stop, Willoughby
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Paul1705
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Re: Triboro RX Proposal

Post by Paul1705 »

This is like a race to the bottom - which is least likely to happen, Triboro RX or the Cross-Harbor Freight Tunnel?

I'm not qualified to say which is a more important use for the line, freight or passenger. It does seem like the freight tunnel would be the more expensive project. (I do have to wonder if, after decades of freight using car floats and the bridge at Selkirk, the tunnel is now a solution looking for a problem.)

Thus I would give a slight edge to a DMU service (possibly-FRA compliant) actually happening at some point. I would guess, to save on costs, most of the transfers to subway lines would be of the "out-of system, walking" type. I would also speculate that the most likely segment to be built would be Bay Ridge to Jackson Heights, thus avoiding any issues of dealing with Amtrak and the Hell Gate Bridge.

Jeff Smith
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Re: Triboro RX Proposal

Post by Jeff Smith »

I don't see it EVER reaching the Bronx in any case; not with MNRR lining up to use it for Penn Access, the fourth track gone, and the third reserved for freight use.
Next stop, Willoughby
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ExCon90
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Re: Triboro RX Proposal

Post by ExCon90 »

True--to be worth doing at all it would need to offer a frequency of service that would preclude sharing tracks with any other rail operation. Regarding the mention in the Brooklyn Eagle of track-sharing in Chicago, the Metra frequencies involved are nowhere near what an operation like this would require; the justly renowned mixed operation on the Burlington racetrack is only possible because of the number of interlockings, permitting "broken-field running." Not gonna happen.

Paul1705
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Re: Triboro RX Proposal

Post by Paul1705 »

Assuming the Cross-Harbor freight tunnel is not built, then how many freight trains are using or would use the the Bay Ridge branch between Bay Ridge and Jackson Heights? I found one source that says two daily freights.

http://www.thebrooklynhopper.com/the-ba ... n-railway/

It seems plausible that a DMU service would work and have reasonably good headways. (Would that be ten minutes at peak hours?) The River Line in New Jersey has a time-of-day waiver (freight at night) and non-FRA equipment. So passenger service is worth a more detailed look.

Going on the Hell Gate Bridge and beyond seems unlikely. Even with the fourth track restored, it's going to be busy enough along there with Amtrak, Metro-North and freight service. (Well, maybe it's worth a study; I could be wrong.)

NIMBYkiller
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Re: Triboro RX Proposal

Post by NIMBYkiller »

What type of service level do you guys see happening here if it were to happen? I can't imagine anything more than 10 minute headways being necessary. Assuming 4 tph MN and 4 tph Amtrak, that totals to 14 tph, or every 4-5 minutes. Surely the Hell Gate can handle that kind of throughput.

Paul1705
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Re: Triboro RX Proposal

Post by Paul1705 »

NIMBYkiller wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:25 pm
What type of service level do you guys see happening here if it were to happen? I can't imagine anything more than 10 minute headways being necessary. Assuming 4 tph MN and 4 tph Amtrak, that totals to 14 tph, or every 4-5 minutes. Surely the Hell Gate can handle that kind of throughput.
It sounds reasonable, but I don't know what Amtrak is aiming for in the long-run, or if they can even afford a higher level of service (even if they do want it). They may be a difficult landlord.

I have no idea what kind of ridership could be expected from a Bronx segment of the Triboro RX. It doesn't connect well with the subways in that borough except at Hunts Point Avenue.

I was wondering: how would DMUs compare in acceleration rates with MN electrics, assuming they share the same station stops?

Pensyfan19
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Bay Ridge Passenger Porposal!

Post by Pensyfan19 »

ADMIN NOTE: Fair-use quotes required and added.

Hey Guys! Triboro RX is not dead! :-D

Been all over the news in the U.S. and worldwide!

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/20 ... and-branch

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/ ... ine--59547
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) yesterday announced it has awarded AECOM a $1.3 million contract to study the feasibility of initiating passenger service on a freight-only rail line that runs from Bay Ridge/Sunset Park in Brooklyn to Astoria in Queens, New York.

The study will evaluate cost and feasibility for subway, commuter-rail, light-rail or bus service that would operate in conjunction with existing freight-rail service to connect riders within Brooklyn and Queens, and create a potential for reverse commutes to the suburbs, MTA officials said in a press release.

MTA Long Island Rail Road (LIRR) owns the line's southern part, which is used exclusively by freight trains operated by the New York & Atlantic Railway. The line's northern part is owned by CSX. The 16-mile line crosses or nears 19 MTA New York City Transit subways lines and the LIRR.
...
https://www.railwaygazette.com/infrastr ... 08.article
...

Passing through a densely populated area of New York City, the Bay Ridge line is currently used primarily by freight operator New York & Atlantic Railway. The railway links docks at 65th Street Yard, which is served by a train ferry across the Hudson River, with NY&A’s main marshalling yard at Fresh Pond in Queens before turning north to join the Amtrak network near Hell Gate Bridge.

Proposals to launch passenger trains along the route originated from the Regional Plan Association, an established advocacy group which assesses the long term infrastructure needs of the New York and New Jersey conurbation. A key objective would be to improve public transport links between Queens and Brooklyn and to enhance the potential for reverse commuting.
...
‘This project is hugely exciting, partly because it is based on the concept of squeezing more out of our already existing infrastructure so we don’t always have to build new subway lines from scratch’, said MTA Chief Development Officer Janno Lieber. ‘Putting mass transit on the Bay Ridge Branch could allow MTA to provide better connections to thousands of people throughout Brooklyn and Queens, all while also creating opportunities for increasing environmentally-friendly freight rail in years to come.
...
"Look down, step over, and watch the gap!" - Dr. John Clarke, the Gap Rap, 2010

Sorry in advance if you do not agree with my opinion.

ConstanceR46
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Re: Bay Ridge Passenger Porposal!

Post by ConstanceR46 »

porposal means transporting dolphins to the aquarium down the culver line
china does trains better
nationalize the class 1s

Backshophoss
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Re: Bay Ridge Passenger Porposal!

Post by Backshophoss »

Triboro RX is DEAD,CSX will NEVER allow NYCTA on Hellgate Bridge,would force CSX to recreate "Sunnyside Jct" and run on Amtrak's track
The Bay Ridge Secondary would wind up as subway ROW(2 track wide). "Sunnyside Jct" was the "west end" of Hellgate bridge,where the
freight mains split away from the passenger mains to Penn station.
A real BAD pipedream!!!
The Land of Enchantment is not Flyover country!

DutchRailnut
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Re: Bay Ridge Passenger Porposal!

Post by DutchRailnut »

explore or study is not proposal , just sayinn.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

Retired Triebfahrzeugführer. I am not a moderator.

DogBert
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Re: Bay Ridge Passenger Porposal!

Post by DogBert »

This is going to be a fun one.

If the study comes in costing less than the LIRR option on RBBL, that's going to raise some serious questions on the conclusions.

I've heard people say RX would be cheaper because it doesn't involve any tunnels. The people who say this are just looking at fantasy maps and not on the ground reality. A station at Ditmars would require widening or replacing the viaduct there, with eminent domain and demolition of buildings, possibly including the church on the north side of the viaduct one block west of the subway. NIMBYs will lose their minds on this one.

The embankment from Bowery Bay to the BQE is also shot. It's ok for single track 25mph freight, but it is eroded on the sides. There's no space up there for two tracks, not without significant work.

They'd need to find someplace to lay 3-4 miles of replacement yard and siding tracks from fresh pond and the new woodside siding to accommodate existing freight traffic. Maybe they can eminent domain bob holden's house for that.

If the price tag comes in under $5B, I'll be surprised. Anything less would be dishonest, and I'm pretty sure no one sane wants to see another ESA style boondoggle.

Backshophoss
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Re: Bay Ridge Passenger Porposal!

Post by Backshophoss »

Triboro-RX belongs in the Subway board,was discussed not that long ago there.
Any 2 track subway line will wipe out the Bay Ridge Secondary.
Most of the 4 track ROW is now useless,encroached on,or lost.
The Land of Enchantment is not Flyover country!

ConstanceR46
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Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:57 pm

Re: Bay Ridge Passenger Porposal!

Post by ConstanceR46 »

would temporal separation work? would break the 24/7 streak but i'd say just bustitute it in the late, late night so that freight can move
china does trains better
nationalize the class 1s

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