PATH and the FRA

Discussion relating to the past and present operations of the NYC Subway, PATH, and Staten Island Railway (SIRT).

Moderator: GirlOnTheTrain

Yanks Rule

Post by Yanks Rule » Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:08 am

I stated your post was irresponsible; not you personally. When I became a motorman 21 years ago, I was instructed to perform a deadman application test at the terminal as part of the standing brake test. I was also instructed to perform a running brake test at 15 mph to see how good the dynamic brake is. Recently, a supervisor suggested to me that running brake tests should be conducted prior to 15 mph just to see if we even have brakes, which makes more sense. These issues are not addressed in the current rulebook. It is called school car instruction.

In conclusion, it seems you, and on separate occasions, LIRR employees think TA employees have easy jobs since they don't work on a "real railroad". Judging by from what I heard from a fellow employee who's dating a LIRR conductor, LIRR crews spend very minimal time on the train (I don't count deadheading and equipment moves). Sounds easy to me. The time spent on the train by TA employees (we call it cab time) pales in comparison to what LIRR crews spend. Could there be some feeling of superiority by "real railroad" employees toward the TA?

One more thing: ask your uncle about P-wire. The TA had it some time ago on the R44 and R46 car classes. I believe the "real railroads" have them. Ask him about the diesel locomotives the TA has. If he's qualified on diesels, ask him to explain the differences between the automatic and independent brake valves. Maybe he can explain things like equalizing, main reservoir, brake pipe and brake cylinder air to you. I'm sure the "real railroads" have them as well.

MNRR PA OPERATOR

PATH AND THE FRA

Post by MNRR PA OPERATOR » Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:05 am

Actually, I hope you didnt take offense to "real railroad". In fact, since you work for the NYCT, you have my utmost respect. Are you still a motorman? It sounds like by your user name, maybe you are A division.

I never meant to insult the subway; in fact, I frequent the F line, and my uncle is a PM guy on the R. I did intend to be a motorman at one time; however, I took the outsider exam and they disqualified me saying I don't meet the requirements because you needed one year with the TA. I worked for the MTA under Metro-North for three years, but I guess that's no good.

Actually, my uncle isn't qualified on the diesels, but since I have seen them and ridden the ones Metro-North has, I'm aware of the independent brake, and how the automatic air brakes work on the diesels. in fact, anyone qualified on diesels in my opinion, should NEVER be called a train operator. On Metro-North, our "Bomb trains" (that's what we call our diesels with the Bombardier coaches with the Genesis locomotives), they equalize their pressure and their brakes don't respond as fast as a electric like a M1 or M2. I'm well aware of electric and diesel trains and the difference between their brake systems. I did also visit the RTO Rail Rodeo back in 2003.

I do aspire to be an engineer myself, and since you have the job I always wanted, I give you the respect you deserve from now on.

Yanks Rule

Post by Yanks Rule » Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:14 am

No, I did not take offense to the term "real railroad". We all have jobs with awesome responsibilities regardless of whether we work at LIRR, MNRR, NJT, NYCT, PATH et cetera. It's probably a blessing in disguise that NYCT turned you down for the Train Operator position. I saw MNRR recently advertised Loco Engineer positions on their website. Are they having problems recruiting from within like the LIRR? Does MNRR pay entry level employees for their training? LIRR does not until you reach a certain phase; at least where the AC position is concerned.

Employees who work diesels in NYCT should be paid extra $$$$ without a doubt because of the different operation required in addition to the extra rules you have to follow (35 along with subsections on a few). I believe LIRR engineers get an extra days pay if they operate a diesel and MU in the same day. To sum up, I believe railroaders earn their $$$ the old fashioned way. Good Luck and Be Safe.

MNRR PA OPERATOR

Post by MNRR PA OPERATOR » Sat Oct 15, 2005 6:54 am

Well, as you know, as the railroads are different, so are the work rules. LIRR engineers not only make a day's pay for running Diesel and electric in the same day, they MUST finish at the terminal they started.

Not only are we hiring locomotive engineers from the street, I believe NJ Transit constantly does the same. Locomotive Engineer and Motorman have one major similarity, they are the most sought after job in ANY RAILROAD, especially because a lot of people, not just railfans, like the idea of running a train all day.

Anyways, on Metro-North, our crews get deadheaded if they finish other than where they started. For example, you might have a NY job, have your train annulled at Stamford, and next thing you know, you get paid to ride back to GCT. Also, running a "Bomb train" diesel and an electric is common. You can run 817, which leaves NY at 1051, arrives Poughkeepsie 1240. Then you get a good turn at 1:33 for 864, arriving NY at 321. Then, you might do a Greystone or a Croton-Harmon local, which is electric service. Also, I do believe Metro-North will pay people for experience. I'm not sure, but since I've worked with Rail Traffic Controllers, some of have come in from Amtrak, making 90 percent of the full RTC rate.

Nasadowsk
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Post by Nasadowsk » Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:30 pm

PATH is FRA because the H&M operated on PRR tracks. You can still see the remnants of the 11 kV overhead and switchgear between Journal Square and Newark. Cars were branded in both H&M and PRR schemes at one time, and I believe even PRR cab signals were used.

The close tie in and shared trackage is what makes it an FRA regulated operation, not interstate operation or high speeds.

PATCO in Philly is NOT a FRA operation, though they achieve over 65 mph, cross state lines, etc. but they don't touch and never interchanged with any "regular" RR. I believe Metrolink in St Louis is now interstate and Max in Portland may be too, now. Neither are FRA. Bart runs 70-80mph, but isn't FRA either (I don't even know if the FRA could claim anything on it, period)

The PRR-H&M joint operation lasted until the 60s or so, i.e. fairly "recently". The LIRR used to tie into BRT and IRT lines, but such services died in the 20s/30s – that's why the MP41s were such narrow and short cars.

Realistically, there's no point to PATH being FRA, and I've heard they've got waivers on just about everything anyway; it's just typical federal agency power grabbing…

keithsy
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Re: PATH and the FRA

Post by keithsy » Fri May 28, 2010 7:03 pm

The FRA has ruined PATH for its employees and its commuters. We used to go from WTC-NWK in 19 of the fastest minutes. Now, it is a 22 minute ordeal.

OportRailfan
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Re: PATH and the FRA

Post by OportRailfan » Sat May 29, 2010 2:03 am

keithsy wrote:The FRA has ruined PATH for its employees and its commuters. We used to go from WTC-NWK in 19 of the fastest minutes. Now, it is a 22 minute ordeal.
...Your point being???
Dock & Q: Last of a dying breed

R36 Combine Coach
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Re:

Post by R36 Combine Coach » Sun May 30, 2010 10:06 pm

Nasadowsk wrote:The PRR-H&M joint operation lasted until the 60s or so, i.e. fairly "recently". The LIRR used to tie into BRT and IRT lines, but such services died in the 20s/30s – that's why the MP41s were such narrow and short cars.
PATH/PRR joint service ended in 1967-shortly after the PA2s were delivered. Some K-cars that were PRR-owned recieved PATH markings afterwards.
Since my friend continues to chain smoke nonstop, she is probably an Alco.

OportRailfan
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Re: Re:

Post by OportRailfan » Mon May 31, 2010 12:39 pm

R36 Combine Coach wrote:
Nasadowsk wrote:The PRR-H&M joint operation lasted until the 60s or so, i.e. fairly "recently". The LIRR used to tie into BRT and IRT lines, but such services died in the 20s/30s – that's why the MP41s were such narrow and short cars.
PATH/PRR joint service ended in 1967-shortly after the PA2s were delivered. Some K-cars that were PRR-owned recieved PATH markings afterwards.
And there are a handful now that are used as flats, or work cars.
Dock & Q: Last of a dying breed

PONYA
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Location: NJ

Re: Re:

Post by PONYA » Mon May 31, 2010 2:04 pm

And there are a handful now that are used as flats, or work cars.[/quote]

K Cars entered service in 1958. Recently used as work train equipment...

Sorry to say K Cars are no longer used on PATH. Save for 1 car left assigned to Car Equipment Division {and not really used}.

52 years of hard use, not a bad record. They got their money's worth from them

MelroseMatt
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Re: PATH and the FRA

Post by MelroseMatt » Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:45 pm

I just realized how old this thread was, after formulating a reply...

Strictly speaking, a connection with an FRA railroad does not mean a transit line must also conform to FRA rules. The Broad Street subway in Philly, has a connection with the SEPTA mainline (which is an FRA Railway, Former Reading RR Philly to Bethlehem/New York Main Line).

However, the connection is only used rarely, for taking delivery of new equipment, and things like that. The switches are manual, and I believe there is a de-rail installed to protect the main line. There is a chain link fence with gates protecting the subway yard from trespassers.

Found one photo here:
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?46524

The section of rail on the left, drops down very steeply to the Septa Main line (catenary towers are visible).

So it may be possible for PATH to drop the FRA requirements, and still keep a useful physical connection with the NEC for equipment and material deliveries.
Additional citations always available.

OportRailfan
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Re: PATH and the FRA

Post by OportRailfan » Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:40 pm

Now that you mention 'deliveries' ...Just an fyi for those that thought the PA5's we're being delivered by rail, they're being trucked into the HCMF
Dock & Q: Last of a dying breed

Ken W2KB
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Re: PATH and the FRA

Post by Ken W2KB » Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:24 pm

While this is intended for a response to a light-rail question, it does explain FRA jurisdiction quite extensively:

http://www.electricity-tool.com/doc/48766-FRA
~Ken :: Fairmont ex-UP/MP C436 MT-14M1 ::
Black River Railroad Historical Trust :: [/url]

R36 Combine Coach
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Re: Re:

Post by R36 Combine Coach » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:36 pm

PONYA wrote:
OportRailfan wrote:And there are a handful now that are used as flats, or work cars.
K Cars entered service in 1958. Recently used as work train equipment...
Sorry to say K Cars are no longer used on PATH. Save for 1 car left assigned to Car Equipment Division {and not really used}.
52 years of hard use, not a bad record. They got their money's worth from them
1243 is still at Harrison. There are some K-car flatcars still around.
Since my friend continues to chain smoke nonstop, she is probably an Alco.

PONYA
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Location: NJ

Re: Re:

Post by PONYA » Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:00 am

1243 is still at Harrison. There are some K-car flatcars still around.[/quote]

The flat cars are not nearly as old as the K Car work motors were. The oldest PATH Flat cars in service are no more than 25 years old. Flat Cars are not K cars. They are manafuctured (mainly Plasser) over a different period of time for use by PA Motors and K Cars. PATH just took delivery of 5 new flat cars this past year.

All regular work train motors are now PA series. Car 1243 is not a work car motor. It a specialised re-rail car tool car for use by Car Equuipment Division. They only run it out of Harrison Yard when a derailment occurrs on the system. Its so little used Car 1243 remains in great condition compared to the plain worn out tired K cars.

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