PATH and the FRA

Discussion relating to the past and present operations of the NYC Subway, PATH, and Staten Island Railway (SIRT).

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The Workers

PATH and the FRA

Post by The Workers » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:46 pm

Why is it that PATH falls under FRA rules & regulations and the MTA's subways do not? Does it have to do with their "interstate" operation (NY/NJ)? Or does their equippment fall under some different catagory?

orangeline
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Post by orangeline » Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:34 am

It may be that the current PATH line between Newark and Jersey City was once physically connected (and at least co-owned) by the Pennsylvania Railroad. Before Newark Penn Station was built in the 1930's there was a station at Manhattan Transfer, about 2 miles east of Harrison, where PRR mainline and what became PATH exchanged passengers. They shared the same tracks thru Journal Square, with mainline going to the PRR Exchange Place Terminal, while the PRR & H&M "transit" trains went underground heading toward Hudson Terminal or Hoboken or 33rd St Manhattan. I believe physical connections between PATH and Conrail and/or NJT existed until fairly recently. Maybe they still do exist?
"Welcome aboard Orange Line run 711. Travel time to downtown is 25 minutes. Next stop will be Pulaski."

pgengler
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Post by pgengler » Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:18 am

I believe there is still a connection to the NEC tracks not far east of the Harrison platform, hence the FRA jurisdiction.
Phil Gengler

Overheard in NY Penn: "All aboard! Get on the train if you're coming with us!"

Irish Chieftain

Post by Irish Chieftain » Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:01 am

The Workers wrote:Why is it that PATH falls under FRA rules & regulations and the MTA's subways do not?
There is one MTA "subway" operation that does fall under FRA jurisdiciton, that being the Staten Island Railway.

orangeline
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Post by orangeline » Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:39 pm

The SIR (not SIRT?) was once owned by the B&O and had connections to CNJ/RDG/B&O mainline at Bayonne, right?
"Welcome aboard Orange Line run 711. Travel time to downtown is 25 minutes. Next stop will be Pulaski."

metman499
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Post by metman499 » Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:47 pm

Nope, SIRT was the B&O and the SIR is the passenger operator.
Nick
Moderator for the CNJ, Reading and GVT forums

Irish Chieftain

Post by Irish Chieftain » Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:51 pm

And the B&O line in Staten Island (especially the North Shore line) connected to the CNJ main in Cranford, going through Bayway, Linden and Roselle. (Still does.)

Incidentally, during the B&O, it was the SIRR. SIRT or SIRTOA is definitely a NYCTA/MTA designation, dropped recently in favor of "Staten Island Railway" (SIR). See this forum for more on that...

communipaw

Re: PATH and the FRA

Post by communipaw » Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:47 am

From the Operating History section of http://hudsoncity.net/tubes/gatewaytubepage.html:
As the former Hudson Tubes [or Hudson Rapid Tubes] of the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Company, [PATH was] not quite the same as most other urban transit systems in the United States. The Tubes' operations were regarded more as a true railroad operation, not as just a subway or elevated running through a city or a built up area.

They were seen as a connecting railroad, small, but still a railroad. Labor organization was based on the railroad unions, not on transit unions; the safety operations were under the Federal Railway Board [and its predecessors and successors] not under a state or local authority. The stations, at least at Hudson Terminal and Journal Square, sold through railroad tickets for journeys across the country. The Class I railroads' timetables listed the H&M as a connecting line, theoretically parallel in importance to long distance lines like the B&O or Lehigh Valley ......

Even the garb of the motormen, engineers, was that of the railroads: striped denim engineer overalls and engineer cap. [Conductors dressed as the conductors on the Class I railroads did, but this was also true, for the most part, of conductors on other transit systems.] After the PA takeover, regulations, laws and customs changed; there is now little reminder of the Tubes as a railroad and a piece of railroad romanticism and of local peculiarity is gone.
The Workers wrote:Why is it that PATH falls under FRA rules & regulations and the MTA's subways do not? Does it have to do with their "interstate" operation (NY/NJ)? Or does their equippment fall under some different catagory?

SPUI

Post by SPUI » Wed Aug 03, 2005 5:27 am

Irish Chieftain wrote:Incidentally, during the B&O, it was the SIRR. SIRT or SIRTOA is definitely a NYCTA/MTA designation, dropped recently in favor of "Staten Island Railway" (SIR). See this forum for more on that...
The Staten Island Railroad was chartered in 1851 to run from Vanderbilt Landing (Clifton) to Tottenville. In 1873 it was reorganized as the Staten Island Railway.

The Staten Island Rapid Transit Railroad was chartered in 1880 to run from Arthur Kill to South Beach, past the end of the Staten Island Railway. It leased the Staten Island Railway in 1884, and was reorganized in 1899 as the Staten Island Rapid Transit Railway.

The Baltimore and New York Railway was chartered in 1888 by the B&O to run west from Arthur Kill to Cranford.

henry6

IT PROBABLY

Post by henry6 » Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:32 am

It probably has more to do with the fact that the New York City subway system does not cross state lines nor does it interchange with any other common carrier. Receiving equipment deliveries via rail does not constitute interchange. SIR(T) has direct connection to old B&O and was once part of the B&O system; H&M is interstate. That's probably the simple version.

MNRR PA OPERATOR

PATH AND FRA REGULATIONS

Post by MNRR PA OPERATOR » Sun Oct 09, 2005 11:41 am

I think they are FRA not only cause they cross state lines, and they achieve speeds of 65 or so while NYCT barely hits and maintains 40. The timer and signal rules are pretty similar.

Other ways to tell FRA is involved:
  1. OPERATIONS PERSONNEL IS CALLED "ENGINEER"
  2. THEY HAVE HIGH BEAMS WHICH THEY REDUCE IF AMTRAK OR NJ TRANSIT COMES NEAR THEM, WHICH IS A FRA REGULATION
  3. THEY DO STANDING BRAKE TESTS WHICH INCLUDE A DEADMAN APPLICATION OF EMERGENCY BRAKES, SOMETHING THAT LIRR AND MNRR DO AND NYCT SUBWAY DOES NOT
  4. DRIVING LICENSE OF ENGINEER IS A FACTOR, WHILE IN NYCT SUBWAY, A MOTORMAN COULD BE THE WORST DRIVER IN THE WORLD, AND IT DOES NOT AFFECT HIS/HER JOB
  5. I ALSO RODE A PATH TRAIN THAT DID OPPOSITE SIDES LAST WEEK FROM JSQTO NEWARK, ALL RUNNING TO NEWARK ON THE NY SIDE ON THE RED LINE
SIMILARITIES BETWEEN PATH AND NYCT
  1. ENGINEER AND MOTORMEN MUST WEAR UNIFORM, ALTHOUGH MOTORMEN WEAR FULL UNIFORM WHILE PATH ONLY WEARS A SHIRT FOR ENGINEERS
  2. TIMER SIGNALS AND SIGNAL RULES
  3. GUARD CHAINS ON STORM DOOR WHERE RF WINDOW IS
  4. TRIP ARMS AND COCKS IF RED SIGNAL IS VIOLATED
  5. SAME SIZE BRAKE HANDLES
  6. SOME OF THE PA-4s have same doorbells as NYC subway cars

Head-end View
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NYC Subway vs. PATH

Post by Head-end View » Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:52 am

Does anyone here know if PATH engineers are BLE members. NYC subway motormen are supposedly not.

PATH signal aspects are very different from NYC Subway signals.

Highest speed I ever observed on NYC Subway was 45 mph, PATH 55 mph across the Meadows.

Yanks Rule

Post by Yanks Rule » Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:58 pm

MNRR PA operator: With all due respect, you need to be corrected on a couple of points.
  • First, NYCT motormen are required to perform a deadman application of brakes at a terminal and in a yard or spur track as part of a standing brake test.
  • Second, you are mistaken about a person being a poor employee and not having his/her job affected. I know of several incidents where employees have been terminated or demoted as a result of poor judgment, work habits et cetera. To suggest otherwise is irresponsible.

arrow
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Post by arrow » Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:33 am

Yanks Rule wrote:Second, you are mistaken about a person being a poor employee and not having his/her job affected. I know of several incidents where employees have been terminated or demoted as a result of poor judgment, work habits et cetera. To suggest otherwise is irresponsible.
I think he was referring to the person's driving (automobile) record, not related to his job as a motorman/engineer.
"Please do not attempt to board the train until it has arrived in the station. Thank you."

"Use Track 5 for the 5:17 local train to Raritan which has just departed."

MNRR PA OPERATOR

Post by MNRR PA OPERATOR » Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:33 am

  1. Yes, I know the motormen rules, because my uncle has been one for seventeen years or so.
  2. Yes, they have to do a deadman application for brake tests, but that's when taking over from layup tracks, sidings or yards only. Metro-North, PATH and and FRA railroads do deadman brake applications at all times.
  3. Driving is a big factor in being an engineer. Note that when I said a motorman can be horrible at driving, I meant in his automobile. In the locomotive engineer job description, all bad driving is unacceptable.
Another thing: Please don't accuse me of being "irresponsible". I am responsible for the entire communication of all the PAs all over Metro-North when assigned to the PA. Now, If I'm capable of moving all the commuters on Metro-North, I'd call that a heavy responsibility. If you doubt it, then come work for the 73PA job. You could learn a lot from me.

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