Ticket Machines and Dollar coins.

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workextra
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Re: Ticket Machines and Dollar coins.

Post by workextra » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:47 pm

The excuse I was told though it has a valid claim is that the dollar coins will not jam in the machine when dispensing change.
Now it appears kind of odd that they accept paper but cannot dispense it? To prevent jams all the carriers would need to do is install crisp new paper bills that are shuffled to keep from sticking together.
I do recall seeing the TVM's on the MTA properties before seeing the self check outs in stores.

Though economical to produce and a longer service life, I can tell you that a roll of $25 in gold coins will require a tighter belt or your pants will be at your ankles.

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Re: Ticket Machines and Dollar coins.

Post by oknazevad » Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:33 am

All things considered, there's little difference in permanently switching to dollar coins. It's not much larger or heavier than a quarter, and a single dollar is pretty much "loose change" in value in this day and age. (If people would actually use the change in there pockets instead of breaking a bill every time they pay for something, then they wouldn't feel weighed down!)

The significantly longer shelf life of any coin compared to the easily worn notes makes it a near no-brainer. Especially when considering the seigniorage factor. That's the difference between the materials and labor cost for producing an individual note or coin and it's monetary face value, which is actually money that the government earns back. The problem with the penny nowadays is that it's seigniorage is negative, meaning the government looses money on a penny made. Dollar bills have a relatively low seigniorage value, as there's no difference between it and a $100 bill, and they wear out quickly (faster than any other American coin or note.)

Also, as a note, half-dollars are still produced in pretty good quantities every year, as are $2 bills. Nothing comparable in numbers to the common bills and coins, but not non-existant, either. I never understood why they fell out of common usage, honestly. I guess with $2 bills it's too small of a difference in size/conviemance compared to a pair of singles, while the half-dollar is a bit larger than people are used to (though it's not large at all, at least compared to an old Eisenhower dollar.)

Anyway, I agree that TVMs should be able to give change in bills, for quantities larger than $5. But below that, bring on the dollar coins. (Though I agree that no one needs a Millard Fillmore dollar coin.)
rails > roads

On second thought, let's not go to the NJ Transit Rail forum, 'tis a silly place.

amm in ny
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Re: Ticket Machines and Dollar coins.

Post by amm in ny » Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:32 am

Tadman wrote:MTA could call up the bosses at CVS and Walmart and ask them how they implemented self-checkout, and who makes the most durable and easy-to-use vending methods. But instead, they hired a consultant, paid him millions, got some cockamamie math that showed that dollar coin-only machines were the way to go, and it's off to the races.
I suspect that they went this way because they went with companies that had proven experience in ticket vending machines and could use existing technology. The original TVMs in the NYC area were European -- they were made by the same company that made the machines used in Munich when I lived there 30+ years ago, and looked a lot like them -- and the Munich machines didn't handle bills at all. (European coins come in larger denominations than US coins -- e.g., DM 5, later EUR 2 -- so bill handlers are less necessary.) My impression is that Europe is way ahead of the USA in TVM technology, and perhaps in vending machine technology in general.

The self-checkout systems use different technology and aren't anywhere near as reliable as a TVM needs to be. I don't use self-checkout myself, but I notice that every such installation has a store employee standing around to deal with problems, and the machines always seem to be having problems. Given that TVMs are supposed to be unattended, I believe that that would be a deal-killer right there.

BTW, I don't know what help "the bosses at CVS and Walmart" would be -- all they could do is tell the MTA what vendors they dealt with. If those vendors also make ticket vending machines, then the MTA would probably know about them already (I doubt that there is a huge number of TVM vendors out there), and if they don't, then there would be no point in the MTA talking to them, anyway.
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Tommy Meehan
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Re: Ticket Machines and Dollar coins.

Post by Tommy Meehan » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:55 pm

amm in ny wrote:I don't use self-checkout myself, but I notice that every such installation has a store employee standing around to deal with problems, and the machines always seem to be having problems.
I do use the self-checkout machines and I can't ever recall having a problem. I don't really recall seeing many problems either. I think the employee stationed at the self-checkout line is primarily for store security and/or to show people how to use the machines.

As to why the MTA preferred machines that would not give paper change --there was twenty years of bill-dispensing ATM experience to draw on.

It's the same thing on the buses. Westchester Bee-Line buses used to have fareboxes that accepted coins or bills. It was a great convenience. When Bee-Line opted to go into the MetroCard system they had to agree to use MTA fareboxes that DO NOT accept bills. Someone at Bee-Line told me they preferred a farebox that would accept coins, bill s AND MetroCards but MTA insisted. Use OUR boxes and NO bills.

Why? I don't know. It never made too much sense to me.

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Re: Ticket Machines and Dollar coins.

Post by MACTRAXX » Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:29 pm

TM: I wonder if WC Bee-Line's contractors now use the same system as the NYCT and MTA Bus to empty their fareboxes
which use vacuum hoses to empty them-meaning bills can not be handled...

Remember also that those systems who accept bills have to process and count those bills and/or pay a Bank to do that work...
That also increases costs in that matter...

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Tommy Meehan
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Re: Ticket Machines and Dollar coins.

Post by Tommy Meehan » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:00 pm

MACTRAXX wrote:Remember also that those systems who accept bills have to process and count those bills and/or pay a Bank to do that work...That also increases costs in that matter...
I'm pretty sure the bills were loaded into machines that can count a lot of bills in a very short time. Plus they have to count the coins too.

What my point was, really, the MTA decides what they want to do and they do it. I don't think they necessarily need a reason. Other than someone in their upper management decides, "We'll do it this way." Period end of story. :)

amm in ny
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Re: Ticket Machines and Dollar coins.

Post by amm in ny » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:48 pm

Does anyone know of public transportation systems (preferrably in the USA) where Ticket Vending Machines that dispense bills as change are in regular use?

ATMs (= bank machines) don't count., nor do self-checkout machines or gambling machines, or anything that isn't dispensing tickets for transportation.

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Tommy Meehan
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Re: Ticket Machines and Dollar coins.

Post by Tommy Meehan » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:03 pm

amm in ny wrote:Does anyone know of public transportation systems (preferably in the USA) where Ticket Vending Machines that dispense bills as change are in regular use?
If the Mint takes the coins out of circulation they'll be a bunch of bill-dispensing TVMs pretty soon. I have a feeling that was Dutch's original point-

The Mint is going to stop making dollar coins but will they also begin to take them out of circulation? If they do that then yes I guess MTA will have to find a bill-dispensing TVM.

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Re: Ticket Machines and Dollar coins.

Post by MACTRAXX » Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:54 pm

TM: I think that it is highly unlikely that US Dollar coins are to be taken out of circulation...Many Transit systems widely use them...

I am thinking that the US Mint is halting production until a decision is made on the fate of the US $1 Bill by the US Treasury...

If the US Treasury decides to end production of the $1 Bill there has to be enough $1 coins in circulation to allow replacement...
Canada's transition took the better part of four years from 1987 to sometime in 1990...The US would probably need five years
depending on how many stored coins there is as opposed to $1 bills in circulation...

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Tommy Meehan
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Re: Ticket Machines and Dollar coins.

Post by Tommy Meehan » Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:43 pm

MACTRAXX wrote:I am thinking that the US Mint is halting production until a decision is made on the fate of the US $1 Bill by the US Treasury...
Yes only that's not what they're saying. The Mint said they are going to stop producing dollar coins because of lack of demand. They have 1.4 billion dollar coins in reserve so why make more? It's being cited as a way to reduce waste in government spending.

I think the big problem is, big retailers in particular don't like them, primarily because their customers don't like them or want them in change. So the big retailers take them out of circulation -- returning them to banks -- instead of using them to stock cash registers.

Is the Mint planning on taking them out of circulation? I don't think that's clear yet. But as you say, many commuter and transit agencies use them so the MTA for instance may be able to replenish their stock of dollar coins for quite a while.

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Fred Rabin
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Re: Ticket Machines and Dollar coins.

Post by Fred Rabin » Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:23 pm

I don't see dollar bills disappearing at any time in the near future - our politicians lack the common sense. And even if it's is going to happen, the Susie coins will have to be demonetized and destroyed - they look too much like quarters. And the gold colored coins should be redesigned to avoid the illegible year and other stuff inscribed on the rims.
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Re: Ticket Machines and Dollar coins.

Post by MACTRAXX » Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:07 pm

FR: Interesting thoughts concerning $1 coins...the SBA Dollar would probably have to be culled from circulation
and then the remaining dollar coins be redesigned to have date and mint mark along with a better denomination
mark on at least one side of $1 coins-I never cared for the rim edge etchings...

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