Port Jervis Line out indefinitely

[Jeff Smith]

OK folks - when some of you want to act like babies, you will be treated as such. The thread is now locked until I decide otherwise.

Adding one post post-lock for the link and quote only. PM Terminal Proceed if you have relevant news as he is moderating the thread.

http://www.railwayage.com/breaking-news ... -3506.html

Vigorously affirming its commitment to repair the damage to its Port Jervis Line Inflicted by Hurricane Irene last month, MTA Metro-North Railroad Thursday publicly heralded the beginning of construction work on the line in Orange County, N.Y., while unveiling limited service restorations involving shuttle bus service, to commence Monday, Sept. 19.

Metro-North will resume train service between Port Jervis, N.Y., near the Pennsylvania border, and Harriman, N.Y., short of the New Jersey state line. Shuttle bus frequencies will bridge a 14-mile rail gap, victim of widespread flooding washouts, between Harriman and Ramsey/Route 17, N.J., where New Jersey Transit service will be available to Hoboken, N.J. (NJ Transit trains reach as far north as Suffern, N.Y., but Suffern is not as easily accessible by highway.)

Ridership on the Port Jervis Line prior to Hurricane Irene’s impact Aug. 28 averaged 2,300 trips per day, a small amount compared with other, more robust Metro-North services, particularly east of the Hudson River. Metro-North’s replacement bus service, put in place immediately after the hurricane last month, is averaging about half that number.

The relatively low ridership prompted some to question the cost-effectiveness of restoring the Port Jervis Line, but Orange County, N.Y., officials defended the line, saying the county’s tax contribution to MTA was made in good faith. Metro-North P resident Howard Permut, appearing on TV and on radio Thursday, insisted the railroad would not abandon the rail line.

TV coverage showed numerous trucks delivering dirt, ballast, and other items to sites along the right-of-way requiring complete rebuilding. Damage is estimated to be at least in the “tens of millions” of dollars, though specific numbers were not offered.

Permut could not offer a completion date for restoring the line, noting numerous bridges and the signaling system needed repair and identifying 50 points along the right-of-way where track had been undercut, or simply removed, by flood waters, mostly near Sloatsburg, N.Y, just north of the New Jersey border.

“It is an all-hands-on-deck effort and all Metro-North departments are involved in the tremendous effort to get train service back on the Port Jervis Line, and I'm proud of the work our people are doing,” Permut said.

[Jeff Smith]

http://www.mta.info/pj/

Here are some developments:

Phase I will include all work necessary to restore full train service on one track between Harriman and Suffern. Work will include:

Building access roads between the material staging areas and the right-of-way (work on this has already started);
Rebuilding the track bed sub grade;
Replacing ballast in the washout areas, compacting the track bed and surfacing the right-of-way;
Performing critical repair work on the undergrade bridges and the track slopes adjacent to the river.

The first phase of this work will be performed by both third party contractors and Metro-North Maintenance of Way forces. The work of these two groups will be fully coordinated.

Third-party contractors will work 24 hours a day/7 days a week. Their contract will be structured with financial incentives for completing work ahead of schedule, and with penalties for delays in completion.

The first phase of work is scheduled to be finished by the end of the year. But it is important to note that this type of construction work is weather sensitive, particularly since the right-of-way is already significantly compromised.

At the end of this first phase, full train service will be restored with the following constraints:

Because we will be operating on only one track, there will be some variations in schedule times for off-peak and weekend trains compared to the pre-storm schedule.
To allow for the second phase of repairs, periodic off-peak and weekend train outages with bus substitutions will be required.

Phase II of the Port Jervis Line reconstruction will include work required to finish full restoration of the line, with additional flood mitigation to protect this significant investment. This requires:

Completing the rebuilding of the second track and track bed between Sloatsburg and Hillburn;
Repairing the signal system and returning it to service;
Completing bridge repairs;
Stabilizing the river bank along the right-of-way, building retaining walls and other flood mitigations.

Completion of this second phase is planned for Fall of 2012. At this point, train service will return to the pre-storm timetable.

We have begun repairs where we have the resources, people, tracks and material. We have started to order the necessary ballast stone. Currently, we are negotiating with landowners for access points for crews, machines and material. We need the cooperation of property owners so heavy-duty earth moving machines, tons of stone, and work crews can access the line and work on a number of places simultaneously to make the repairs as quickly as possible.

The amount of materials required to rebuild is staggering and purchasing has already begun.

An estimated 75,000 tons of ballast and other "fill" materials will be needed just for Phase I work to rebuild the sub-grade track structure and make limited repairs to the embankment.
Another 70,000 tons is anticipated for Phase II work.
This equates to 5,000 tractor trailer-sized dump trucks.
Contracts have been executed with four companies to provide ballast and other fill.

[SecaucusJunction]

So it looks like the 100 million + dollar amount being rumored by several sources and railfans might have been a bit exaggerated. Glad to see it will be back also before the 6-8 months mentioned even up to last week.

Unfortunately still no talk of double track or other improvements. I can't believe they would try to fix the signals when they were scheduled to be replaced next year anyway.

[Sirsonic]

Adding tracks and/or upgrading (meaning replacing) signals and the entire signal system can be very time consuming and costly projects. Given the (albeit delayed) urgency in getting a track open it would cause an unwanted delay to add such projects.

[SecaucusJunction]

Yes, I would suppose that since they are going to have the line back in service within about 2 months, double tracking would really be a separate project. There were chirps about it happening within 2 years but we'll see what happens. As far as I know, the signal system will still be upgraded next year.

[MattFels-man]

As part of the cross county project, they will probably re-double track everything on up to Stewart Airport in Newburgh, using the ARC monies unspent for the deep level Penn project. Ramsey Rte 17 cannot handle the huge busloads from Harriman. Wouldn't be a bit surprised to see them start work either on the Suffern to Nyack segment as part of the TZ bridge project.

[pumpers]

Yes, I would suppose that since they are going to have the line back in service within about 2 months, ...

Well, could be 3 months and they would still make the end of year deadline... Let's hope the construction bonuses for early completion are enough to get done before even 2 months. All the lines which had major washouts (including wrecked bridges) in Vermont were back up as of about 1 or 2 weeks ago except one, and even that one supposed to open this week. All far faster than originally estimated. JS

[JoeG]

The MTA report says that the total cost of the repairs will be $60 million, although it isn't clear if some of that is the cost of the substitute services for several months.

Construction costs seem to rise more than the rate of inflation, but this seems high. For comparison, the 1955 hurricane that wrecked 70 miles of the double-track Lackawanna in PA cost them $7 million to repair. Adusted for CPI inflation, that would be around $56 million today. And, the engineering report said that the damage wasn't as bad as first predicted: no severe bridge damage, signal system intact though damaged, rails intact. The total amount washed out was a couple of miles.

Is this just what building anything costs in post-industrial America, or is the MTA exaggerating? I don't know the answer.

[cjvrr]

But did the DL&W used their own crews and own equipment?

The cost of paying employees already on staff is much cheaper than hiring outside contractors that have overhead they need to factor into their prices.

The MTA report says that the total cost of the repairs will be $60 million, although it isn't clear if some of that is the cost of the substitute services for several months.

Construction costs seem to rise more than the rate of inflation, but this seems high. For comparison, the 1955 hurricane that wrecked 70 miles of the double-track Lackawanna in PA cost them $7 million to repair. Adusted for CPI inflation, that would be around $56 million today. And, the engineering report said that the damage wasn't as bad as first predicted: no severe bridge damage, signal system intact though damaged, rails intact. The total amount washed out was a couple of miles.

Is this just what building anything costs in post-industrial America, or is the MTA exaggerating? I don't know the answer.

[metrony]

The PJ Line needs to be double track already!

Metro-North is going to have a task ahead of them from getting the ex train riders to Shortline back on the rails again. Don't forget the bus is cheaper and all the park and ride lots are free compared to Metro-North. I know some people who never though much about the bus, but now takes it and loves it and is saving tons of money too.

[Sirsonic]

There was, indeed, talk of 6-8 months exactly a week ago as you will see in this article with a quote straight from the head of MTA Bus who is running this operation...

http://hudsonvalley.ynn.com/content/top ... ck-online/

Please do not assume that no one else knows anything about this.

MTA bus is running nothing, watch official MTA info , not some former bus driver.

The president of your railroad would disagree with you that MTA bus is not running anything.

""We are committed to restoring the Port Jervis Line as quickly as possible. It is an important part of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority's regional network," said Metro-North Railroad President Howard Permut. "In the meantime, Metro-North has marshaled the resources of MTA Bus to provide alternative service during reconstruction and Metro-North forces are building access roads to the tracks to literally lay the groundwork for the outside contractor. "NJTRANSIT, Leprechaun Lines and MTA Bus have all been very helpful and cooperative in this crisis," Permut said."

http://www.mta.info/news/stories/?story=398

[JoeG]

The Lackawanna hired 13 contractors to work on the repairs. They probably used their own crews also. At the time, of course, railroads had much more labor available to them than they do now. It's possible that the $7 million did not include regular pay they spent on regular employees. One thing that makes the comparison difficult is that the Lackawanna and MTA may have different motivations in stating costs. The Lackawanna may have tried to minimize their storm damage estimates for public consumption because they had stock, they were in bad financial shape, and high estimates of damage could have hurt their stock. The MTA on the other hand, has regular, vociferous complaints from Orange and Rockland counties that the MTA collects much more in revenue from those counties than it provides in services. Their report explicitly talks about how only the great resources of the MTA enable the quick restoration of service, and $50 or $60 million, to these cash-strapped counties, sure sounds impressive.
So, maybe it is just not possible to compare 1955 Lackawanna costs with 2011 MTA costs.

[Ridgefielder]

The Lackawanna hired 13 contractors to work on the repairs. They probably used their own crews also. At the time, of course, railroads had much more labor available to them than they do now. It's possible that the $7 million did not include regular pay they spent on regular employees. One thing that makes the comparison difficult is that the Lackawanna and MTA may have different motivations in stating costs. The Lackawanna may have tried to minimize their storm damage estimates for public consumption because they had stock, they were in bad financial shape, and high estimates of damage could have hurt their stock. The MTA on the other hand, has regular, vociferous complaints from Orange and Rockland counties that the MTA collects much more in revenue from those counties than it provides in services. Their report explicitly talks about how only the great resources of the MTA enable the quick restoration of service, and $50 or $60 million, to these cash-strapped counties, sure sounds impressive.
So, maybe it is just not possible to compare 1955 Lackawanna costs with 2011 MTA costs.

Also-- just putting on my professional economics hat for a second-- there are a bunch of different ways to measure inflation, CPI being only one of them, and possibly not the best when you're speaking in terms of railroad construction. There are some quirks in the way the Consumer Price Index is calculated that can cause it to be understated. There's a decent argument to be made when looking at economic history that the best way to get an accurate number for pre-1965-ish prices is to multiply by a factor of anything from 10 to 20 (the MSRP for a 1962 Ford Falcon 4-door sedan was $1,974 for instance; MSRP for a 2012 Taurus is $22-38k.) 10 x $7mm is $70mm...

[waldwickrailfan]

sub-contractors still working for MNCR.
Not other way around, The bus guy is not a spokes person.
Just as I am not a MTA or MNCR spokeperson.

But yes, there was talk of it. No one ever said it was official. There was no reason to jump down anyone's throat. I provided information accurately from a quoted source who has been working on the busing project.

although you are right about the source, did you even check MTA's website? they say it will be a maximum of 6 months, although i was thinking more like 3-4. that source is both reliable and unreliable. they will get some service between Harriman and Suffern by the end of 2011, but full restoration by fall 2012.

http://www.mta.info/pj/

this is from metro north's website. this should be more reliable

[Jeff Smith]

Jesus, can another thread be started for actual updates before this one goes down the tubes again? I grew up in the area and I would love to use this thread to get updates on progress but from the beginning the whole sixteen pages have been nothing but whining, fighting, and the occasional news piece. This is a railroad forum, post about the railroad. They moved passenger consists through Warwick for the first time in who knows how long and no one bothered going to memorialize it, or share it with others. A massive rebuilding project is happening and I haven't seen a single shot. If you want to fight, do it via PM, thats why it exists. No one needs to read moderators fighting with each other, or users fighting amongst themselves. Stick to the topic!

I'm glad I moved to Boston and spend most of my time in the MBTA forum because quite frankly with this community I probably would never have become a railfan in the first place.

I'm going to agree with this poster. Kevin and I are sick and tired of hearing reports of drama and silliness, especially when it is driving traffic AWAY! from the site.

ENOUGH!

Continued discussion can be found here: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 43#p976043

Kevin and I are tired of hearing from people who have expressed frustration at the silliness that goes on, whether in this thread, another thread on the subject, this forum, or another forum. Disagreements are welcome; petty squabbling is not. Take that stuff off-line (or at least, to PM).

MNRR is one of our best forums on here. It's rare that Kevin or I have to step in. Please; let's keep it that way!