WoH Port Jervis Line Service, Studies, Work, Status

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, nomis, Jeff Smith, FL9AC

trainbrain
Posts: 346
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 7:11 pm

Re: Scheduling question for Port Jervis Line

Post by trainbrain » Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:34 pm

Not possible without double tracking, or seriously reducing rush hour service. Making train 49's deadhead return into a revenue run would close that gap a little.

Weekend Path service to both lower and midtown Manhattan, and running all Port Jervis trains express are the low hanging fruit for improving off peak utilization of the line. Peak hour ridership is pretty good (shown by the utilization of 7 car trains), and the only thing that's going to help that grow more is when Gateway is finally built and trains can run directly to NYC. The addition of Secaucus already cut 15 minutes out of the trip from any Port Jervis Line station to midtown (vs staying on the train to Hoboken and going through all the Path stops to 33rd), and I'd think a one seat ride would be able to cut another 5-10 minutes out of the trip with the Secaucus transfer. It takes 15 minutes to get from SEC to NYP on a NEC train, but you also need 5-10 minutes to do the transfer, which the one seat ride eliminates.

Backshophoss
Posts: 6323
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:58 pm

Re: Scheduling question for Port Jervis Line

Post by Backshophoss » Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:54 pm

Don't believe MN/MTA will ever buy AL45DP's,so forget that 1 seat ride dream,as it is now,
there's NO ROOM for them at NY Penn,before or after the Gateway Tunnels are built.
In the past there was a 4 track mainline from Ridgewood Jct to Suffern, the "take" I'm getting is NJT ripped up 2 main tracks
to save $$$$$$,that is the BIG mistake NJT made,nor should MN pay for the replacement of 1 of them.

For better or worse WOH service is run by NJT as MN's contractor,they call the shots south of Suffern(state line)
MN can ask for some things,NJT may/may not grant their wishes.
MN will do what it can from Suffern to Port Jervis for track improvements,then suggest a schedule to NJT,
but in the end,NJT still is in control, so don't expect much.
The Land of Enchantment is not Flyover country!

trainbrain
Posts: 346
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 7:11 pm

Re: Scheduling question for Port Jervis Line

Post by trainbrain » Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:53 pm

While I think a one seat ride to Penn Station during rush hours would definitely be a good thing, it's not the cure-all for attracting more riders. Also, I thought that part of Gateway was to add more platforms and tracks at Penn Station.

When Wesmont Station opened on the Bergen Line, they interviewed some of the users on the first day it was open. A few of the people they interviewed said that because of the new station they were going to start using the train to get to NYC (which requires a transfer to reach NYC) instead of the bus (which goes directly to PABT). Those people worked in midtown and lower Manhattan. There's a lot of stuff within walking distance of the Path stations within NYC. Much more than is within walking distance of Penn Station.

It'll be interesting to see how service is operated when the new yard is built at Salisbury Mills. I don't think that there is enough ridership at those stations to make the newly added trains express like the current ones are. I'm guessing they will mostly be semi express runs that make some stops between Suffern and Ridgewood, and then skip every stop once the lines split. I think some of the midday Suffern locals will begin short turning at Waldwick, and will be replaced by semi express runs between Ridgewood and Suffern, turning at the new yard. I could also see an additional Harriman express getting added, but I think that most of the trains going all the way to Port Jervis will continue to stop at Tuxedo, Sloatsburg, Suffern, and Route 17 as they do now. Suffern and Route 17 are definintely the heavy hitters for ridership on the express trains, and outside of rush hours, there isn't the ridership further out to justify bypassing them.

SecaucusJunction
Posts: 3082
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:40 pm
Location: NS Watchdog

Re: Scheduling question for Port Jervis Line

Post by SecaucusJunction » Sun Jul 31, 2016 7:39 am

The minute you add NJ stops to any new Port Jervis Line trains means NJT is going to have to pay for part of their runs, which they are terribly reluctant to do. So even without great ridership, you might see first stop Suffern on any new trains.

Also, Salisbury Mills has not yet been chosen for the midpoint yard. Many locations are being evaluated.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.

trainbrain
Posts: 346
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 7:11 pm

Re: Scheduling question for Port Jervis Line

Post by trainbrain » Sun Jul 31, 2016 7:52 am

In that case, I'm guessing the short turn runs will be express to Route 17, as most trains are now, and the trains still going all the way to Port Jervis will be nonstop to Suffern, and an extra train going nonstop to Harriman. The trains going further should be the ones with no NJ stops. I wonder if a super express train going nonstop after Middletown would be possible (like the Hudson Line has after Beacon). It would probably shorten the travel time from Port Jervis to Hoboken to under 2 hours. The Suffern express trains do it in 2:15 and the Harriman express does it in 2:05. However, there probably isn't enough ridership that far out to make it practical.

rr503
Posts: 704
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 4:13 pm
Location: North by Northwest

Re: Scheduling question for Port Jervis Line

Post by rr503 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:14 am

Is there even excess capacity for service expansion at HOB? Whenever I go there, it's pretty full...

trainbrain
Posts: 346
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 7:11 pm

Re: Scheduling question for Port Jervis Line

Post by trainbrain » Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:10 pm

Hoboken has 18 tracks, entirely for NJT's use, while PSNY has 21 tracks and NJT only uses half of them and shares some with Amtrak. My guess is that a lot of the trains don't have fast turnarounds, and they leave them at the platforms because there's no need to pull them out of the station to let another train discharge. For example, I took train 54 to Hoboken today, and when I got there, they had the same track that it just arrived on displayed for 1109, which wasn't scheduled for another 2 hours. Unless they took that set out and replaced it with a different train, it sat on the platform for over 2 hours.

54 was pretty crowded today, and it's a later rush hour train, compared with 48 and 52. If they have any extra equipment, it would be nice to see that train, as well as 55 in the evening lengthened to 7 cars.

EuroStar
Posts: 746
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:26 pm
Location: Middle of Nowhere

Re: Scheduling question for Port Jervis Line

Post by EuroStar » Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:25 am

During rush hour the turnaround time at NYP tends to be 15 minutes. A set that arrives on the 1-4 tracks would be going west through the tunnels or onto the storage tracks at NYP within that time. On the through tracks when the set is going to Sunnyside they might be able to do a little better. They are nowhere close to 15 minute turns in Hoboken.

trainbrain
Posts: 346
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 7:11 pm

Re: Scheduling question for Port Jervis Line

Post by trainbrain » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:04 am

It's better to have longer turnaround times because it makes a delay due to a late incoming train less likely. Hoboken has the space to do that, but PSNY does not. I believe turnaround times for most weekend trains are an hour at Hoboken. Weekday times can vary.

SecaucusJunction
Posts: 3082
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:40 pm
Location: NS Watchdog

Re: Scheduling question for Port Jervis Line

Post by SecaucusJunction » Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:44 am

A stub end station will always need many more tracks than a through station. This was a reason why the ARC station was doomed and The reason why GCT has 100+ tracks.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.

DutchRailnut
Posts: 22270
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: released from Stalag 13

Re: Scheduling question for Port Jervis Line

Post by DutchRailnut » Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:15 pm

GCT does not have 100 tracks unless you count each and every non platform track and loop.
it has closer to half.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

Retired Triebfahrzeugführer. I am not a moderator.

trainbrain
Posts: 346
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 7:11 pm

Re: Scheduling question for Port Jervis Line

Post by trainbrain » Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:50 pm

When they build the new yard on the Port Jervis Line, they'll need more equipment to run the extra trains. Once NJT starts aggressively purging all the single level equipment, would MNCR take some of the Comet V's off NJT and use those to expand its own fleet, or would they dedicate a portion of the Shoreliner replacement order to expand the WOH fleet?

SecaucusJunction
Posts: 3082
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:40 pm
Location: NS Watchdog

Re: Scheduling question for Port Jervis Line

Post by SecaucusJunction » Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:32 pm

My heart says shoreliners but my mind says comet Vs
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.

Backshophoss
Posts: 6323
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:58 pm

Re: Scheduling question for Port Jervis Line

Post by Backshophoss » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:02 pm

More likely a MN variant of the NJT Multi-Level II's cars. :wink:
The Land of Enchantment is not Flyover country!

TDowling
Posts: 528
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:36 pm
Location: West Point, NY

Re: Scheduling question for Port Jervis Line

Post by TDowling » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:21 pm

From a non-RR employee perspective, conceivably, the 2:41pm from Hoboken to Middletown train could turn at Middletown as a revenue run back to SEC/HOB without even needing a second track built. Supposing that the set turns at 4:40, by the time it reaches Harriman the first evening westbound would already have passed and could reach double track at Sloatsburg before the second evening wb arrives. Of course, this is playing railroad chicken :wink:

Return to “MTA Metro-North Railroad and CtDOT Passenger Rail”