Former SPV 2000's CDOT Constitution Liners Status

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

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DutchRailnut
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Re: CDOT Constitution Liner cars head south?

Post by DutchRailnut » Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:42 am

They will be sitting in New Orleans yard so FEMA can use them to save natives during next Hurricane.
to me these cars would be perfect candidates to be made into Amtrak cab cars.
after all the Metroliner candidates are running low.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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BuddSilverliner269
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Re: CDOT Constitution Liner cars head south?

Post by BuddSilverliner269 » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:05 am

DutchRailnut wrote:They will be sitting in New Orleans yard so FEMA can use them to save natives during next Hurricane.
to me these cars would be perfect candidates to be made into Amtrak cab cars.
after all the Metroliner candidates are running low.
Agggh what a waste of some cars. They will sit and not turn a wheel and not collect any revenue. :(

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Re: CDOT Constitution Liner cars head south?

Post by Jeff Smith » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:46 am

Not to mention, weren't the "hurricane" cars pretty much unused the last time? With Amtrak scrambling for cars, I would think they would be far more useful in actual revenue service.
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shadyjay
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Re: CDOT Constitution Liner cars head south?

Post by shadyjay » Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:35 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong... but....
shouldn't CDOT have retained these cars for future commuter rail expansions, ie - the Springfield Line? Now I'm not saying the Springfield Line commuter service is going to happen tomorrow, but it would seem logical to me to hold onto the equipment while you have it, rather than scramble at the last minute, and add god knows how many millions of dollars to purchase brand new equipment to operate on that line.

Or, is the theory with CDOT that M8s will go to SLE service and the SLE trainsets will go to the Springfield Line? If that's the case, then okay, that makes sense. And there's still probably at least a decade before anything happens but it seems like a shortsighted move to sell off "decent" passenger equipment to sit somewhere.

and on another note.....
not to get this off-topic but to comment ever so quickly on other things said here...
what made Amtrak pull its "extras" out of NOL? Are they putting those cars back in service? Also saw another Metroliner cab car restored to service. Hmmm.

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Re: CDOT Constitution Liner cars head south?

Post by DutchRailnut » Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:39 pm

The Constitution liners are not in a good shape at all, they need a desperate rebuild.
Having the cars sit for 10 years in hope of service to Springfield would really reduce them to scrap.
CDOT has 33 Mafersa/VRE cars while only using 16 for 4 four car trainsets, so by no means short of equipment.
http://www.ct.gov/dot/cwp/view.asp?Q=314714&A=1373
As for the ex-SPV's good ridance.

As for M-8's on shoreline east, don't hold your breath, not enough cars ordered and not enough money to order more.

Yes Amtrak has been restoring cars back to service including some from FEMA reserves.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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BiggAW
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Re: CDOT Constitution Liner cars head south?

Post by BiggAW » Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:22 pm

Why would braking matter? Aren't the brakes only used for the final stop, and rest dynamic from the loco?

ConnDOT owned them, they probably offered them to Amtrak, as they are the most logical buyer, but they probably didn't want them. They are heavier than the regular plumbing pipe cars, as they have all of the extra junk that used to go with the self-propelled system, plus that blister up top. SLE is owned by ConnDOT, but operated by Amtrak by Amtrak crews under contract.

I don't know if Amtrak will operate it when the M-8's come in, or if MTA/MN will operate them, since they are more like MTA equipment. I also don't know if they will run from GCT all of the to OSB, or if they will go from NHV to OSB like they do now with the cross-platform connections like they do now. It would be interesting if they were operated by MTA/MN, as they would probably be tested from NHV to GCT, and then like a lightswitch, it would go all M-8's, as you wouldn't want Amtrak and MN crews running the same service at the same time if they were to gradually phase in one trainset at a time, with the diesels providing the other for a month.

I still can't figure out why ConnDOT didn't just pick up any old thing that will push/pull a train with electricity, like in 1998 when, according to Wikipedia, a bunch were scrapped, some E60's, or today some AEM-7's from somewhere. That way, they could use the existing coaches. It's not exactly like the GP-40-2H's are new or anything, and for commuter service, just about anything that is powerful enough would work fine.

What a waste as hurricane cars. Jeez. Ya the theory is the M-8's replace the coaches and Geeps, and the old stuff goes to Springfield or branch service. Then again, they are getting BL20-GH's when there are prefectly good F's and FL9's around. Ridiculous waste of state money. The F10's up at RMNE that I guess are still owned by ConnDOT should be on the trains, not wasting money on BL20-GH's. The F's would have to be fitted with newer pollution controls or a new prime mover, but that's cheaper than buying a new loco.

The VRE cars run in 2 or 3 car sets with an older cab car on the end at least on the SLE, not sure have many trainsets they have.

DutchRailnut
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Re: CDOT Constitution Liner cars head south?

Post by DutchRailnut » Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:46 pm

The VRE sets have been running with 4 cars and all ex VRE for few months now.
http://photos.nerail.org/photos/2008/07 ... 224557.jpg
Picture by Josh Adams.

Electric locomotives are not option as one SLE set runs to Waterbury every day.
As for F and FL units they are no longer tier 0 compliant and only very litle maintenance is allowed, before it exceeds the EPA guidelines and needs to be shut down till next calender year.
Ok for museum but not for day to day operation.
As I said the M-8's are very iffy as not enough cars are ordered. And now Govenor Rell wants to take seats out and replace them with Bicycle racks, which makes fleet another 22 cars short.
As for dynamic braking, yes for service brakes that is great, but do you like a train where if Dynamic/blended brake fails the brake rate is 60% less ???
The SPV-2000 brakes sucked when the Jake brake was taken off but the brakes still sucked even as coaches.
As for weight all truck and APU equipment was removed including radiators mufflers and radiator fans.
Only Item left in each fiberglass blister is a eveporator and fan for both air-conditioners
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: CDOT Constitution Liner cars head south?

Post by Erie-Lackawanna » Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:55 pm

I can't help myself, so here goes:
BiggAW wrote:Why would braking matter? Aren't the brakes only used for the final stop, and rest dynamic from the loco?
No.....

Dynamic braking is used when the train is in motion, and with most locomotives, which use DC traction motors, dynamic braking effort declines as speed declines under x mph, to the point that they are ineffective below, say 5 mph. You need air brakes to STOP the train. You need air brakes to KEEP THE TRAIN STOPPED. Dynamic braking is not a fail-safe system, so you need air brakes to brake the train when the dynamic fails.
BiggAW wrote:I don't know if Amtrak will operate it when the M-8's come in, or if MTA/MN will operate them, since they are more like MTA equipment. I also don't know if they will run from GCT all of the to OSB, or if they will go from NHV to OSB like they do now with the cross-platform connections like they do now. It would be interesting if they were operated by MTA/MN, as they would probably be tested from NHV to GCT, and then like a lightswitch, it would go all M-8's, as you wouldn't want Amtrak and MN crews running the same service at the same time if they were to gradually phase in one trainset at a time, with the diesels providing the other for a month.
You just veered way off topic, but I'll indulge you for a moment.

Unless ConnDOT awards the operating contract to MNR, Amtrak will operate the M8s in SLE service east of NHV. Even if the last option isn't exercised, it's a pretty good bet that some of the SLE runs will be equipped with M8s. They may run through to Stamford or GCT; that's up to CDOT. Regardless of how the transition works (and it will be a transition to M8 equipment, not a "light switch" conversion), Amtrak crews will operate east of New Haven and MNR crews will operate west of New Haven. Amtrak and MNR crews would never run the same service side-by-side because Amtrak crews can't run commuter service in MNR territory.
BiggAW wrote:I still can't figure out why ConnDOT didn't just pick up any old thing that will push/pull a train with electricity, like in 1998 when, according to Wikipedia, a bunch were scrapped, some E60's, or today some AEM-7's from somewhere.
Because east of New Haven wasn't electrified until 2000, and more importantly, CDOT wanted equipment that could go anywhere in CT, not just under the wire.
BiggAW wrote:What a waste as hurricane cars. Jeez. Ya the theory is the M-8's replace the coaches and Geeps, and the old stuff goes to Springfield or branch service. Then again, they are getting BL20-GH's when there are prefectly good F's and FL9's around. Ridiculous waste of state money. The F10's up at RMNE that I guess are still owned by ConnDOT should be on the trains, not wasting money on BL20-GH's. The F's would have to be fitted with newer pollution controls or a new prime mover, but that's cheaper than buying a new loco.
OK, your ruse is up. You're a foamer, and you foam enough to cover a runway at JFK with a 747 coming with no landing gear.

No, seriously...HUH? Perfectly good Fs & FL9s? Are you out of your mind? They're 50-60 years old! They need to go already!!! The ones that went to museums are where they should be. They should not be pulling commuter trains. Tourist trains, maybe. Not commuter trains, where people ride the train to get somewhere - reliably.

Whew!

Jim

BiggAW
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Re: CDOT Constitution Liner cars head south?

Post by BiggAW » Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:40 am

Couldn't they use electrics on SLE and then switch in New Haven or have another trainset for Danbury, or have one on diesel, and the rest on electric? It just seems counter intuitive to run diesel under the wires.

On the F's, if locos were built before 1973, they are exempt, did they lose this because they were rebuilt at some point? Plus, couldn't they install pollution control devices or retrofit the engine to meet these standards? If ConnDot abandons these great locomotives, I'd love to see these things run in a pair at a museum/ tourist line. :D

How could the M-8's be 22 cars short? Aren't there only 20 needed assuming 4 trainsets, 4 cars each, one spare? That' pretty generous even.

Yeah, that's no good, I would think brakes should have more than dynamic. Nonetheless, its not the like the train is out of control. It will still stop.

The blister still weighs something, and at Amtrak NEC speeds, would also have more wind resistance instead of the smooth plumbing pipe effect. Although with AEM-7's, I'm not sure that would matter. :D

Um, we were saying the brakes sucked, not that they were completely dysfunctional.

Ok, that explains why they didn't buy E60's, but they should have gotten something by now. Running diesel under the wire is a total waste. Plus, with locomotives, you can uncouple the cars and use a diesel, like Amtrak used to do on the NEC in NHV. M-8's can't do that, but they have other stuff now for diesel runs I guess.

Oh yeah, the BL20's and even the Geep's are 100% reliable.

http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo ... =ebtmikado

Hmmm, looks like the first loco died (I was there for the opening of Madison station, it died in Westbrook, 55 minutes late, was shoved with it's HEP running and prime mover idling but unable to move the loco). Not all locos are reliable. FL9s could be just as reliable as the GP's or BL20s if they are well maintained (although I think I just said nothing looking at the BL20 problems and that GP shove).

Trains that are 50 or 60 years old are just fine for commuters. Look at the City of San Francisco's light rail system. In the city, many of the cars are much older than 60 years (cable cars and street cars). They have PCC's and cars much older, and the thing looks like a west coast version of the Branford trolley museum crossed with the city's transit system.

The F's have a good public image, as any F carbody is perceived by the public as a locomotive from the golden days of railroading, and it is aesthetically pleasing, especially so in New Haven paint. Anything else (BL20, GP40, P40) to Joe Public is just a big, noisy box that moves the train (although the NH paint helps a little on the GP's).

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Re: CDOT Constitution Liner cars head south?

Post by DutchRailnut » Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:53 am

Again stop foaming, your not reading what we are trying to tell you, putting enviromental controls on a 567 is possible but you lose about 20% of power.
Yes every F unit currently in service was rebuilt past 1973, so they all need to comply.

As for Electric vs Diesel the amount of fuel in one form or other remains the same, a Diesel kilowatt will use as much fuel as an Electric kilowatt, it only changes where the emmisions are unloaded.
Locally or at the Electric plant.
As for changing engines in New Haven, it takes about a half hour to properly bluelight, drop jumpers , undo bluelight, switch engines, bluelight, re attach jumpers and hoses, do full brake test, remove blue light.
Not very condusive for Commuter railroading
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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BiggAW
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Re: CDOT Constitution Liner cars head south?

Post by BiggAW » Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:17 am

Thanks on the rebuild info.

At least with electrics, they would have more flexibility than with electric MU's and separate diesel trainsets, the option to go through the switch process if they wanted to.

As for the efficiency, there are a number of things to take into account here. That would be true if our grid was running off of IC diesel engines, but it's not. IC diesel has a thermodynamic efficiency of about 20%, compared to 33% for the 450MW oil burning plant in New Haven, or any other type of steam plant. The IC diesel engine on a locomotive has to pump out much more power during acceleration, and the way the GP's whine, they are working hard. This lowers the efficiency during acceleration, and the turbos can suck some more fuel. Compared to having a larger engine, turbos are the way to go, but compared to electric they are fuel hogs.

Next, the fuel source on a GP is either fossil diesel (I assume they use this with little or no biodiesel) or biodiesel, since it burns the same as fossil diesel. Electric, on the other hand, draws from a more diverse power grid. While some of the power may be coming from the New Haven oil plant, some grid power comes from the clean, safe, environmentally friendly Millstone, which throughout it's lifecycle emits a tiny fraction of the CO2 of any fossil based power. Also, a lot of power in the southwest part of the state comes from natural gas, which, without counting the huge efficiency gains, produces about half the CO2 per MWh as a petroleum based fuel source, and non-CO2 pollutant levels which are a tiny fraction that of that of a petroleum source.

Next, it is much easier to control pollution on a big plant than on hundreds of little locomotives (although admittedly for this purpose, we are talking about somewhere around four trains). A huge coal burning plant can use up to date scrubbers that will take SO2, NOx, etc etc out of the stack exhaust, although it will still be an environmental menace for CO2 emissions. Small diesel locomotives cannot do this as well, especially the out of date GP's and the awful P40's which belch out crap all the time.

Note that I do support strict emissions requirements, and my support of the F's is based on them being retrofitted to meet the most stringent diesel locomotive exhaust emissions requirements for SO2, NOx, and particulates, which can be filtered/ treated, although CO probably can't be treated without just replacing the prime mover.

Some electrics can brake using regen, which is better than dynamic, since the power goes back to the lines, and another train can use it. If they are equipped with regen, 7% of the power can be recovered, which would be great in commuter service. START-STOP-START-STOP etc etc...

The last point to remember is that as governmental requirements come into effect, the electric grid will get cleaner, with renewables and nuclear playing a larger, ultra low CO2, low non-CO2 pollution part of the grid, meaning that electric locomotives will get cleaner over time, while diesels will be the same or dirtier if they are not well maintained.

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Re: CDOT Constitution Liner cars head south?

Post by DutchRailnut » Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:53 am

Well CDOT is not looking at electrics, they don't have moey for electrics, they lose flexibility with electrics,.
And buying 6 million $$ electrics for a 30 mile ride is highly inefficient.
As for thru trains no electric can run in AC and DC mode of third rail in push pull mode so their useless there.

Now can we go back on topic, without the off topic rants ??
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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BiggAW
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Re: CDOT Constitution Liner cars head south?

Post by BiggAW » Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:59 pm

We already solved the original topic, that the cars are going to New Orleans for (dis)use as "hurricane cars". Well, at least AEM-7's could run push-pull to Stamford like the GP's do, but faster and cleaner.

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Otto Vondrak
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Re: CDOT Constitution Liner cars head south?

Post by Otto Vondrak » Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:13 pm

BiggAW wrote:Ridiculous waste of state money. The F10's up at RMNE that I guess are still owned by ConnDOT should be on the trains, not wasting money on BL20-GH's. The F's would have to be fitted with newer pollution controls or a new prime mover, but that's cheaper than buying a new loco.
There are no F10's at RMNE. You are thinking of the two "New Haven" F7A's, 6690 and 6691 that are still owned by CDOT. Doubtful you could rebuild a fifty year old engine *again* and make it compliant with today's emissions standards and spend less money than a new locomotive.

Let's make sure we're still talking about the old Constitution Liners...

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BiggAW
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Re: CDOT Constitution Liner cars head south?

Post by BiggAW » Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:22 pm

Ok, F7A's.

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