Metro North WOH Rail Options Using the Tappan Zee Bridge TZB

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

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CComMack
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Re: Tappan Zee corridor study?

Post by CComMack » Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:45 pm

I'm actually very familiar with the plan as it existed before October, complete with Metro North branch over the new bridge. (There is a reason this thread exists, after all!) But the more I read, the less impressed I am. For instance, in the section you cited:
BRT for Westchester
The specific characteristics of the BRT system that will operate in the I-287 corridor have not been finalized. Westchester County is recommending that the following characteristics be considered in the final design of the new BRT system:

1. The BRT system should be separated from general traffic as much as possible. Ideally, the new BRT system should operate in its own independent right-of-way.
2. Stations should be accessible to pedestrians and should be strongly integrated with the surrounding land use – that is to say, they should not be in the middle of parking lots or in the middle of I-287.
3. The new BRT system should be designed so as to complement existing bus and train transit services and, where possible, should exploit/develop the opportunities for local feeder service.
Have you noticed that points 1 and 2 are diametrically opposed to each other? Unless we're about to seize several miles of local roads parallel to 287 and turn them into a limited-access busway, which should be very popular with the neighbors, they are incompatible goals.

This was not a plan; this was an aspiration. Suddenly it's clear why the budget for the BRT component was so high; no value engineering had been done, and the solution to squaring the circle was to throw money at it.

I reiterate my point that ferries are cheaper than a new bridge by two orders of magnitude.

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Tommy Meehan
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Re: Tappan Zee corridor study?

Post by Tommy Meehan » Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:48 pm

One thing I'm not too clear about, the CRT was to be operated by Metro-North. Who was going to operate the BRT?

Maybe MTA Bus, but I don't think I ever saw it detailed.

One question I have about the possible use of ferries. How do you move them over the I-287 Corridor? A median canal? :)

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Re: Tappan Zee corridor study?

Post by Jeff Smith » Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:49 pm

From the RFP: http://www.nyacknewsandviews.com/2012/03/tzbpark_do/
Transit: “The contract will require that the new bridge be fully able to support transit, including allowing for Bus Rapid Transit and Commuter Rail if full systems are constructed on either side of the bridge in the future and provide immediate express bus service.”
Next stop, Willoughby
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Tommy Meehan
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Re: Tappan Zee corridor study?

Post by Tommy Meehan » Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:26 pm

First I should say, thanks Jeff for these links. This one especially is pretty interesting.

I don't have any problem with the old bridge being demolished. It would be fun I think to see it turned into a greenway but if it's too much money than they can pull it down. I live in the area and a lot of people would like to see it become a greenway so I think it needs to be thoroughly discussed first.

I am suspicious of their estimate on the annual maintenance outlay required though. What does it cost to maintain the old Poughkeepsie railroad bridge, now the Walkway Over The Hudson? I can't believe it's tens of millions of dollars a year.

workextra
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Re: Tappan Zee corridor study?

Post by workextra » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:01 am

What are the proposed routes of the railroad right of way from and from what line? Will the build a connector along the highway from the Harlem Line or will the Hudson Line Tracks be elevated to the bridge on a new out and back segment of track to allow it to gain the needed elevation?
Is there any diagrams or Maps showing the proposed plan? What type of bridge are they looking to replace the existing bridge with anyhow?

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Re: Tappan Zee corridor study?

Post by Jeff Smith » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:20 am

Most of the links off th tzbsite.com have been removed to the rail portion, but if you go back through the thread they should be in here somewhere. But to answer your question in brief, the final or preferred rail proposal was a tunnel/loop to the Hudson line only using two alignments in Rockland (along 287 and the Piermont ROW) connecting at Suffern to the PJ line. The cross-Westchester proposals had two alignments through or around White Plains, again, mostly in tunnels.
Next stop, Willoughby
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SecaucusJunction
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Re: Tappan Zee corridor study?

Post by SecaucusJunction » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:50 am

Some news about the Tappan Zee Bridge including a dedicated bus lane and a $14 toll... No mention of rail.

http://online.wsj.com/article/APf07807f ... 733f4.html

http://www.lohud.com/article/20120820/N ... se-debated
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.

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Re: Tappan Zee corridor study?

Post by Jeff Smith » Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:58 am

It seems the bridge will still be built to accomodate rail, but it's unlikely we'll see it in our generation.

http://pleasantville.patch.com/articles ... -tarrytown
No to mass transit but, yes, transit-ready. There will be eight lanes total, four per span, each span with shoulders on each side and one side with a super-large shoulder big enough to accommodate future bus transit. The bridge price tag also includes $300 million to bear the weight of future rail.

To this Lannert objected, believing that the expense was too great for something that would never come to fruition. “This option of rail is a nonstarter. It won’t happen, so why pay for something that is totally unrealistic.”

But Roche said never say never.

“You can’t predict the future,” he said, insisting that a bridge meant to last 150-plus years had to leave room for everything imaginable.
A little more fanciful ideas here at the meeting:

http://www.lohud.com/article/20120914/N ... ck_check=1
WEST NYACK — Mass transit across a new Tappan Zee Bridge. The resurrection of the West Shore Line. More bike lanes in Rockland.

Those were some of the ideas Rockland residents pitched Thursday at the Palisades Center for inclusion in a long-range transportation vision for the region.

The New York Metropolitan Transportation Council, a planning organization for the Lower Hudson Valley, New York City and Long Island, is in the midst of drafting the plan, which will cover the years 2015 to 2040.

NYMTC spokeswoman Lisa Daglian said the 25-year plan must determine how to spend an estimated $1 trillion, although 90 to 95 percent will be used to keep the region’s infrastructure in good condition.
West Shore? Methinks not. We'll see passengers on the Piermont first, and that's doubtful.
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JoshKarpoff
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Re: Tappan Zee corridor study?

Post by JoshKarpoff » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:00 pm

Thruway Authority to announce new Tappan Zee Bridge design at December 17th meeting
http://blog.timesunion.com/capitol/arch ... dge-design
The Thruway Authority is seeking comment on the three designs on its website, though public opinion won’t hold sway on the final decision.
The designs, submitted this summer, added up to more than 700,000 pages in total. They are preliminary and subject to adjustments.
For our purposes, we’ll refer to the three options as the Tuning Fork, the Ladder and the Harp — references to the shapes of the dominant support structures that would form the bridge’s midsection.
In the article, the author states that the review committee is recommending the one that the TU says looks like tuning forks. This bridge will be "Mass-Transit Capable". However, it will not include any major mass transit improvements at the time of the bridge's opening. It seems as though Albany has just kicked the can down the road for improving the region's mobility and that for now all they're interested in is replacing the current bridge before a major structural accident occurs.
It also appears that the Cuomo Administration is going to shove their selection down everyone's throats. None of the selections are all that great looking. All 3 of them do little to change the long run-up to a middle span, where all we're doing is just debating which type of suspension towers we'll end up with. It doesn't even do much to change the width or height of the middle span, but just replaces the truss with suspension.
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Re: Tappan Zee corridor study?

Post by Backshophoss » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:49 pm

It figures that any form of mass transit was deleted from the final design,from what I understand, the current TZ span despite
constant maintance,is an "accident waiting to happen" so to speak.
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Re: Tappan Zee corridor study?

Post by SecaucusJunction » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:39 pm

News from the Tappan Zee Bridge. NY State is expected to choose the least costliest option out there. Probably not good news for those hoping for mass transit.

http://online.wsj.com/article/AP202300a ... a0eaa.html
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.

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Tommy Meehan
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Re: Tappan Zee corridor study?

Post by Tommy Meehan » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:07 pm

There is some good news but it depends on how you define "mass transit."
The selection of the proposal by Tappan Zee Constructors delivers on three critical fronts: cost, completion time, and mass transit readiness to carry express buses on day one. - Rob Astorino, Westchester County Executive.
The option chosen will also have the structure in place that will be needed for a future addition of rail service.
I am pleased to see that the option selected allows for the addition of mass transit in the future – as I believe this is something which would be important to commuters. - Congressman Eliot Engel.
I think most of us understand that at present the State of New York just does not have the funds available to build the bridge with all the features that many people would like to see. But the current one really needs to be replaced now.

http://blog.timesunion.com/capitol/arch ... s-decided/

nyrmetros
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Re: Tappan Zee corridor study?

Post by nyrmetros » Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:52 pm

So, how will the bridge be mass transit friendly? Will there be a rail line eventually built over the bridge? Is the superstructure being built with this in mind?

Backshophoss
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Re: Tappan Zee corridor study?

Post by Backshophoss » Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:13 pm

Some sort of "Busway" type of mass transit,NO RAIL of any type. :(
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Tommy Meehan
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Re: Tappan Zee corridor study?

Post by Tommy Meehan » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:57 pm

They're saying the bridge structure will be built to support a double-track railway although they don't have the money to build it now.

The express bus lanes will use (in part) the emergency lanes and will speed service between Rockland County and the Metro-North station in Tarrytown.

(This was all discussed in more detail several pages back.)

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