Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, nomis, Jeff Smith, FL9AC

User avatar
GirlOnTheTrain
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 7:19 pm

Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Post by GirlOnTheTrain » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:21 am

dgvrengineer wrote:What does Gov. Cuomo have over Amtrak that they suddenly give up all their demands for bridge rehab and access fees for a stinking study on Long Island service?
Apparently the same pull he has over the MTA ramming through an alternate L train plan. Oh wait, he claims he doesn't control the MTA... /eyeroll
"I am no longer just a girl on the train, going back and forth without point or purpose."

Moderator: Amtrak, MTA Metro-North, MTA New York City Subway/PATH/NYC Area Light Rail

Jeff Smith
Site Admin
Posts: 8512
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:28 am
Location: MP 67.2 Georgia Southern Railway

Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Post by Jeff Smith » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:54 am

checkthedoorlight wrote:A nagging question I keep having on this New Haven service to Penn.....right now, the regulations on ticketing are that New Haven line trains can not be used for inner-city travel. No riding between Grand Central and 125/Fordham. Are they going to modify this regulation so that customers can ride between Penn Station and the Bronx, or are these Bronx stations going to be for Westchester/CT commuting only? If they do modify it, are they going to completely do away with the regulation on the Grand Central trains as well?
Different animal; it’s not a historic dinosaur from legacy railroads that may or may not be valid post New York Central. It’s a new service that as Tommy notes has a stated intent of serving the East Bronx, wherever they might be bound, be it Penn or the burb’s. And CtDOT has wanted it for a long time, going so far as to equip their new fleet accordingly.

There’s a good discussion here on the Fordham issue: http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=163459" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Next stop, Willoughby
~Jeff Smith (fka "Sarge") :: RAILROAD.NET Site Administrator/Co-Owner

Jeff Smith
Site Admin
Posts: 8512
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:28 am
Location: MP 67.2 Georgia Southern Railway

Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Post by Jeff Smith » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:08 pm

I’m separating out posts on the Hudson Line Penn Access here, so it doesn’t get lost in the sauce: http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=169110" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This topic still has plenty of info on the early stages of the study in the older pages... I’ll leave that there as it would be difficult to separate.

This topic will be for the actual service that’s now moving forward.

Thanks!
Next stop, Willoughby
~Jeff Smith (fka "Sarge") :: RAILROAD.NET Site Administrator/Co-Owner

Ridgefielder
Posts: 2685
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: Harlem Division MP 15

Re: Metro-North Penn Station West Side Access

Post by Ridgefielder » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:33 pm

Jeff Smith wrote:The ROW once accommodated 4 tracks the entire length (save Pelham Bay Bridge I think), and 6 south of 180th St (the defunct NYW&B). So there’s room for four. But I’d expect them to be to one side or the other to simplify station design, perhaps with Island platforms. I question if the frequencies would require four tracks... a third with occasional passing sidings and meets may be sufficient.

South of Hunts Point, on the Hell Gate Bridge and through Astoria, adding a track may be problematic. The Hell Gate currently only has three tracks, one of which is the Bay Ridge(?) freight track, which runs up to Pelham Bay if IIRC. Jaap do I have that right? So you have to account for CSX and P&W runs along the Branch, too. So you’re only going to get three in most places.
The line was 6 tracks all the way from the Bronx end of the Hell Gate to New Rochelle, Jeff. When it was built out in its current form between 1905-1915 the New Haven had a huge amount of local freight business in the East Bronx, and the Board, controlled by Pierpont Morgan, was determined to future-proof in the expectation that volumes would continue to grow. It was the same mentality that led them to build the Conn River drawbridge with room on the piers and abutments for a 4-track span, and to construct South Station with a lower-level loop for electric suburban service.

2 tracks were removed in the late '30s, two more in the '70's.

Jeff Smith
Site Admin
Posts: 8512
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:28 am
Location: MP 67.2 Georgia Southern Railway

Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Post by Jeff Smith » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:51 pm

To confirm what Ridgefielder states, here’s some historical confirmation on the former Harlem River Branch service that ended in the early 30’s, followed shortly after by the NYW&B:

http://gothamist.com/2019/01/23/metro_n ... ations.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MTA To Add Four New Stations In The East Bronx (At Metro-North Prices)

Some slight inaccuracies: the track south of New Rochelle terminated at the Harlem River terminal. In a non-quoted passage, alluding to CheckTheDoorLight’s earlier question on Fordham, they say the NH shares track in the Bronx with the Hudson Line but “makes no stops”; it’s the Harlem. They then mention the discharge stop at Fordham, with a follow up that MNRR is discussing the issue with CT.
...
However, transit buffs know that these "new" stations are really a restoration of local access to a line that last saw local railroad service in the early 1930s. And the success of the new stations could depend on whether the MTA offers discounted fares for travel within city limits, something the authority has resisted in the past.

The New Haven Line, which will include the new Bronx stations, originated as the New York and New Haven Railroad in 1849. By the early 1900s the line had expanded and was known as the New York, New Haven and Hartford; it expanded to six electrified tracks, and terminated at the second Grand Central Terminal at Park Avenue and East 42nd Street that opened in 1913.

The NY & NH opened several stations in the Bronx around this time, all of which were active from approximately 1906 through 1931; they were designed by renowned architect Cass Gilbert, designer of the Woolworth Building. Some of these stations are still standing: The southernmost, the Hunts Point station, is a handsome dormered building on the north side of Hunts Point Avenue at the Bruckner Expressway, currently occupied by stores and scheduled for rehabilitation. The Westchester Avenue station is a Beaux Arts classic, now abandoned, stretching over the tracks at Westchester and Whitlock Avenues at the Sheridan Expressway, featuring the NY, NH and H's winged staff of Hermes with its two entwined snakes.

The former Morris Park stationhouse ruin can be seen along the north side of the railroad at Sacket and Paulding Avenues; in recent years, someone has festooned it in an American flag motif, with stars at the entrance and bars on the sides. A final station ruin that served the long-gone trolley line to City Island stands in the woods a short distance south of City Island Road from the Hutchinson River Parkway to the City Island circle. Other stops along the line, at Casanova Street, West Farms, Van Nest, and Baychester, have completely disappeared.
Next stop, Willoughby
~Jeff Smith (fka "Sarge") :: RAILROAD.NET Site Administrator/Co-Owner

User avatar
SRich
Posts: 193
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:19 am

Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Post by SRich » Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:09 pm

So a long 4 track portion is possible. MNRR should do that. No interference with Amtrak for piece and a good reliable connection to penn and new haven
Last edited by SRich on Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Greatings from the Netherlands

Arlington
Posts: 4068
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:51 am
Location: Medford MA (was Arlington MA and Arlington VA)

Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Post by Arlington » Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:27 pm

Was there ever a stop on the viaduct in Queens?
"Trying to solve congestion by making roadways wider is like trying to solve obesity by buying bigger pants."--Charles Marohn

Jeff Smith
Site Admin
Posts: 8512
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:28 am
Location: MP 67.2 Georgia Southern Railway

Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Post by Jeff Smith » Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:54 pm

To my knowledge, no. NH passenger service ended at either the Harlem River Terminal, with a connection to the 2nd (and 3rd?) Avenue el, or at Pennsylvania Station for some intercity service they shared with the PRR. Unsure if the Bay Ridge Branch ever had passenger service; it was electrified, but I think it was just frei.
Next stop, Willoughby
~Jeff Smith (fka "Sarge") :: RAILROAD.NET Site Administrator/Co-Owner

User avatar
GojiMet86
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:04 pm

Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Post by GojiMet86 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:57 pm

The Bay Ridge line south of Fresh Pond had stations, that's it.

amtrakowitz
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:33 pm

Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Post by amtrakowitz » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:55 am

SRich wrote:So a long 4 track portion is possible. MNRR should do that. No interference with Amtrak for piece and a good reliable connection to Penn and New Haven
Big gulf between "should" and "will". Is such an investment politically justifiable for a maximum of what, six trains per hour?

BM6569
Posts: 1378
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:19 pm
Location: Hebron, Maine

Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Post by BM6569 » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:04 pm

Seems like it would make sense to replace the bridge now before the new service starts....

Jeff Smith
Site Admin
Posts: 8512
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:28 am
Location: MP 67.2 Georgia Southern Railway

Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Post by Jeff Smith » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:24 pm

I was just thinking that although the M8’s are equipped for the run (once third rail is extended) what about other equipment such as locomotive pulled coaches which could theoretically run through to New Jersey? It would unfortunately be captive to the NEC though, unless dual mode.
Next stop, Willoughby
~Jeff Smith (fka "Sarge") :: RAILROAD.NET Site Administrator/Co-Owner

Union Tpke
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:22 pm

Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Post by Union Tpke » Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:37 pm

They could run via the Morris and Essex Lines, but platforms would have to be converted to high-levels.

EuroStar
Posts: 738
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:26 pm
Location: Middle of Nowhere

Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Post by EuroStar » Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:34 pm

Union Tpke wrote:They could run via the Morris and Essex Lines, but platforms would have to be converted to high-levels.
Good luck with that. If NJT was interested in high level platforms they would have done that long ago. The MTA converted all platforms to high levels decades ago (with minor exceptions on the diesel ends).

35dtmrs92
Posts: 505
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:40 am
Location: New Haven, CT

Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Post by 35dtmrs92 » Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:21 pm

Conversion of the remaining 25 Hz portions of the NEC to 60 Hz AC would enable M8s to access all the wired network, and not having to provide a transformer big enough to handle 25 Hz nor the equipment to switch between 25 Hz and 60 Hz would pay dividends in lower rolling stock costs. What actually has to be done to achieve this? Replace/re-gear turbines and generators at Safe Harbor?

Return to “MTA Metro-North Railroad and CtDOT Passenger Rail”