Major grade-crossing accident in Valhalla 2/3/15

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4400Washboard
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Re: Major grade-crossing accident in Valhalla 2/3/15

Post by 4400Washboard »

carajul wrote:....
Keep in mind that this is a devekoping story.. While I do think the woman made a fatal and huge mistake, I wouldn't start slamming her until later on when more information comes out to solidify that she is an idiot.
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runningwithscalpels
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Re: Major grade-crossing accident in Valhalla 2/3/15

Post by runningwithscalpels »

4400Washboard wrote:What will happen to the mate of the first car? Considering that it's mate is heavily damaged, I'd expect it'd be used for parts like the R143s from the L line bumper block collision (NYC Subway accident)
That pair (and likely consist) will be tied up for a while with investigations. Not a bolt will move off it until investigators are done with it.
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nomis
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Re: Major grade-crossing accident in Valhalla 2/3/15

Post by nomis »

Mod Note: Since I started it overall: tangents and references to accidents in third rail grade crossings are allowed. However, tangents references to accidents in diesel or catenary territory are going to be off topic (except for those of fire situations within cab cars / MU's).
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runningwithscalpels
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Re: Major grade-crossing accident in Valhalla 2/3/15

Post by runningwithscalpels »

4400Washboard wrote:Keep in mind that this is a devekoping story.. While I do think the woman made a fatal and huge mistake, I wouldn't start slamming her until later on when more information comes out to solidify that she is an idiot.
More worried about a scratch on her Benz than getting out of the way when eyewitnesses were giving her room and telling her to back up off the tracks? The presented information speaks volumes.
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EuroStar
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Re: Major grade-crossing accident in Valhalla 2/3/15

Post by EuroStar »

Tommy Meehan wrote:Reportedly there was a serious accident on the adjacent Taconic State Parkway and traffic was backing up. See below. I'm not sure which direction the motorist was heading but there is very little room to maneuver.
From the images in the news it appears that the train was on the west track (I believe that is track 2, the usual southbound to GCT track). Also form the images of the magled car it appears that the car points in such a direction that it was moving north on Commerce St towards intersection with the Taconic. Therefore the car was not "trapped" in the short piece of road between the crossing and the Taconic that someone linked to earlier. From the Google Map images it appears that due to the fact that the street crosses the railroad at an angle, the gate on the west side is further back from the tracks than it would be in a perpendicular crossing. By comparing the distance between the gate and the size of other cars shown in the same frame of the map one can conclude that if the gate hit the trunk the car would have still been away from the tracks (or fouling them only slightly which would have resulted in a sidesweep with likely minor consequnces). It appears that if the driver moved forward to clear the car from the gate they would end up right in the middle of the tracks. Does anyone know if the gate at that location have the blinking lights on top of the arms or only next to the X? If there are lights on the arms, I see no way how a reasonable person would not see the lights on the arms of the opposite direction traffic and conclude that they are in the middle of the crossing. Furthermore in a situation like this the smartest thing to do is to drive forward and if necessary crash in the vehicle in front or the vehicle stopped at the gate in the opposite direction than to continue fouling the crossing. Unfortunately someone who is concerned about a hit on their car by the gate arm is even less likely to sacrifice their car to get out of harm's way.

4400Washboard
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Re: Major grade-crossing accident in Valhalla 2/3/15

Post by 4400Washboard »

Tommy Meehan wrote:Reportedly there was a serious accident on the adjacent Taconic State Parkway and traffic was backing up. See below. I'm not sure which direction the motorist was heading but there is very little room to maneuver.
IIRC, the load of people at the affected crossing were taking a detour from the Taconic pkwy which was screwed up because of the accident stated above. Per ABC7 news
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MN-P32AC-DM-201-227
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Re: Major grade-crossing accident in Valhalla 2/3/15

Post by MN-P32AC-DM-201-227 »

Just seen on channel 12 the pair of M-7's were moved into North White yard into the shop.

Jehochman
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Re: Major grade-crossing accident in Valhalla 2/3/15

Post by Jehochman »

Sumwalt, of the NTSB, said the impact moved the vehicle 1,000 feet down the tracks. For about 400 feet, he said, the third rail was shoved into and breaking apart into the first rail car, "but at least one piece penetrated into the second rail car."
http://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/w ... /22822737/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think this is the crux of the disaster, and the response will be mandatory grade separation when there is 3rd rail, or some sort of design change that anchors that third rail head in place so well that it can be dislodged, such as a big concrete pylon.

glennk419
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Re: Major grade-crossing accident in Valhalla 2/3/15

Post by glennk419 »

Ridgefielder wrote:
nomis wrote:hird rail public grade crossings happen, off the top of my head, only on a couple systems here: MN, LIRR, Chicago CTA.
No grade crossings on the ex-Philadelphia & Western trackage operated by SEPTA?
No, none. Totally grade separated.
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Re: Major grade-crossing accident in Valhalla 2/3/15

Post by glennk419 »

Tommy Meehan wrote:
Jeff Smith wrote:I agree that crossing should be closed permanently. There's a bridge over the RR just a bit north of the station. Put another ped bridge over the whole parkway too, and close parkway access there, too.
Being from the area I'm not sure it would be possible to permanently close Commerce Street where it crosses the tracks. It's fairly heavily used as a connector between (ironically) the Westchester Medical Center area and the towns of Hawthorne and Thornwood. It should definitely receive some safety enhancements as well as some of the other Harlem Line grade crossings. Virginia Road in North White Plains is another one where traffic backs up at rush hour with cars sitting within the railroad right-of-way and where there have been many near misses.

Btw I think the former electrified Reading lines in the Philadelphia area have grade crossings. I don't think the former P&W lines do.
The SEPTA ex-RDG lines have multiple (40+) grade crossings along with the ex-PRR Media (West Chester) lines however it is all catenary territory.
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glennk419
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Re: Major grade-crossing accident in Valhalla 2/3/15

Post by glennk419 »

4400Washboard wrote:What will happen to the mate of the first car? Considering that it's mate is heavily damaged, I'd expect it'd be used for parts like the R143s from the L line bumper block collision (NYC Subway accident)
I think that's the least of MN's worries at this point.
Glenn

glennk419
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Re: Major grade-crossing accident in Valhalla 2/3/15

Post by glennk419 »

EuroStar wrote:
Tommy Meehan wrote:Reportedly there was a serious accident on the adjacent Taconic State Parkway and traffic was backing up. See below. I'm not sure which direction the motorist was heading but there is very little room to maneuver.
From the images in the news it appears that the train was on the west track (I believe that is track 2, the usual southbound to GCT track). Also form the images of the magled car it appears that the car points in such a direction that it was moving north on Commerce St towards intersection with the Taconic. Therefore the car was not "trapped" in the short piece of road between the crossing and the Taconic that someone linked to earlier. From the Google Map images it appears that due to the fact that the street crosses the railroad at an angle, the gate on the west side is further back from the tracks than it would be in a perpendicular crossing. By comparing the distance between the gate and the size of other cars shown in the same frame of the map one can conclude that if the gate hit the trunk the car would have still been away from the tracks (or fouling them only slightly which would have resulted in a sidesweep with likely minor consequnces). It appears that if the driver moved forward to clear the car from the gate they would end up right in the middle of the tracks. Does anyone know if the gate at that location have the blinking lights on top of the arms or only next to the X? If there are lights on the arms, I see no way how a reasonable person would not see the lights on the arms of the opposite direction traffic and conclude that they are in the middle of the crossing. Furthermore in a situation like this the smartest thing to do is to drive forward and if necessary crash in the vehicle in front or the vehicle stopped at the gate in the opposite direction than to continue fouling the crossing. Unfortunately someone who is concerned about a hit on their car by the gate arm is even less likely to sacrifice their car to get out of harm's way.
The gates at that crossing do have arm mounted lights although that does not seem to have made any difference in this case.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.08615,- ... OdiHww!2e0
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4400Washboard
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Re: Major grade-crossing accident in Valhalla 2/3/15

Post by 4400Washboard »

glennk419 wrote:
4400Washboard wrote:What will happen to the mate of the first car? Considering that it's mate is heavily damaged, I'd expect it'd be used for parts like the R143s from the L line bumper block collision (NYC Subway accident)
I think that's the least of MN's worries at this point.
I'm asking what may happen to it. Not whether metro north has determined it.

This is a "What do you think" question, not a "What has the MNRR said they will do with it"
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Backshophoss
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Re: Major grade-crossing accident in Valhalla 2/3/15

Post by Backshophoss »

What suprises me is the fact that Traffic Lights are still on the Taconic and Saw Mill Parkways,before moving west in the mid-80's
there was some thought/talk of closing off the remaining traffic light exits on the parkways and some of the grade crossings
as well. Commerce St and Stevens Ave are considered to be the "back door " access to Gate of Heven and Kensico Cemteries
Roaring Brook Road in Chappaqua,and Green Lane at the Mt Kisco/Bedford Hills line are the only other Traffic light exits
on the Saw Mill that I can remember.
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justalurker66
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Re: Major grade-crossing accident in Valhalla 2/3/15

Post by justalurker66 »

Jehochman wrote:I think this is the crux of the disaster, and the response will be mandatory grade separation when there is 3rd rail, or some sort of design change that anchors that third rail head in place so well that it can be dislodged, such as a big concrete pylon.
The recommendation can be made but mandatory grade separation is unlikely. As noted, this is not the only crossing of third rail tracks in the country. Closing them all would not be trivial.

Burring the end of the rail would work better than a pylon that would become yet another object in the way of an accident. With a shoe under rail design one would not be able to simply turn down the rail at the ends ... the rails would need to be bent away from the tracks and then down. A design where when (not if) a vehicle or a derailed train goes across the end of the third rail it goes up and over the rail and skids on top of the rail instead of collecting the end of the rail.

The closest idea to a pylon that I can imagine working would be the end of a Jersey barrier ramped down and buried to lift a vehicle up before it hit the exposed end of the rails. It would not need to be a full height barrier ... just enough to lift an object or dragging gear higher than the third rail.

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