M-2s on the Hudson line

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

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rpjs
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M-2s on the Hudson line

Post by rpjs » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:34 am

My usual train, #734, which I catch at 8.05am at Philipse Manor was formed of M2s this morning, which is as far as I can recall a first for me in the two-and-a-half years I've been commuting on the Hudson line. This train is normally operated by a Shoreliner set, even though it only starts at Croton-Harmon. Obviously the Shoreliners are being more usefully employed on the New Haven line skeleton service, but I was quite surprised to see a red multiple-unit turn up this morning. Maybe we'll get M8s next week?

truck6018
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Re: M-2s on the Hudson line

Post by truck6018 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:00 am

M8's if you're lucky. North White Yard has also been filed with red.

RearOfSignal
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Re: M-2s on the Hudson line

Post by RearOfSignal » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:42 am

Maybe now with these reports we can put to rest the comments that MNR isn't moving its diesel sets over to the New Haven.
Hurry up and wait at the signal!

F-line to Dudley via Park
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Re: M-2s on the Hudson line

Post by F-line to Dudley via Park » Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:18 am

How's the power draw in 3rd rail territory equipped for handling a lot of 2's/4's/6's/8's? Do they put significantly more load on it than the 3's/7's? I know the 8's are thirsty suckers just being the newest and most complex. And I know the Harlem's power draw is a little on the weak side and exhibits some signs of stress at rush hour with the 7's. But is that "sea of red" significantly different in power usage than the 'sea of blue' fleet in 3rd rail mode?

RearOfSignal
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Re: M-2s on the Hudson line

Post by RearOfSignal » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:00 am

If they're not running 12 car sets of M7s or M8s it shouldn't be a problem. The M7s originally drew a lot more power upon acceleration than they do now, MNR toned down the rate of power consumption once they noticed the strain it put on the third rail system in some parts of the territory. MNR also limits M7s to 8 cars max as precaution. As far as the M3s vs the M2/4/6s in terms of power consumption the difference if any is negligible. So as long as the M8 trains going up the H&H aren't more than 8 cars, there shouldn't be any difference.
Hurry up and wait at the signal!

rpjs
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Re: M-2s on the Hudson line

Post by rpjs » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:40 pm

RearOfSignal wrote:If they're not running 12 car sets of M7s or M8s it shouldn't be a problem. The M7s originally drew a lot more power upon acceleration than they do now, MNR toned down the rate of power consumption once they noticed the strain it put on the third rail system in some parts of the territory. MNR also limits M7s to 8 cars max as precaution. As far as the M3s vs the M2/4/6s in terms of power consumption the difference if any is negligible. So as long as the M8 trains going up the H&H aren't more than 8 cars, there shouldn't be any difference.
My train this morning was short-formed - it's usually eight cars if it has an M7 rostered on it, but today's was only six.

CTRailfan
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Re: M-2s on the Hudson line

Post by CTRailfan » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:37 pm

RearOfSignal wrote:If they're not running 12 car sets of M7s or M8s it shouldn't be a problem. The M7s originally drew a lot more power upon acceleration than they do now, MNR toned down the rate of power consumption once they noticed the strain it put on the third rail system in some parts of the territory. MNR also limits M7s to 8 cars max as precaution. As far as the M3s vs the M2/4/6s in terms of power consumption the difference if any is negligible. So as long as the M8 trains going up the H&H aren't more than 8 cars, there shouldn't be any difference.
Oy vey. The infrastructure can't handle the new trains. So instead of actually fixing it, just put a software patch on to limit power usage. Great. At least the H&H have some future expansion capability without adding any more track, sidings, slots, or anything else complicated. Just build a brand new power distribution system and they could increase the capacity with 12-car trains on the lower parts.... That we can't blame MN for, as Albany would have to give them funding to fix it right...

RearOfSignal
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Re: M-2s on the Hudson line

Post by RearOfSignal » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:10 pm

CTRailfan wrote:Oy vey. The infrastructure can't handle the new trains. So instead of actually fixing it, just put a software patch on to limit power usage. Great. At least the H&H have some future expansion capability without adding any more track, sidings, slots, or anything else complicated. Just build a brand new power distribution system and they could increase the capacity with 12-car trains on the lower parts.... That we can't blame MN for, as Albany would have to give them funding to fix it right...
Not really, the signal system is the real thing holding back expansion on the upper Harlem(North of NWP). The signal blocks are too long, so the headways are between trains are lengthy, don't remember the actual numbers. MNR has studied adding a 3rd track from CP 117 up to CP 123. Besides MNR runs 10 car M3 trains up to Southeast and 12 cars as far as NWP. In fact that 12 car train only uses 10 cars going north -the head 2 are closed, that head open car is usually empty.

But we're talking about M2 and other New Haven electric equipment being used on the Hudson.
Hurry up and wait at the signal!

CTRailfan
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Re: M-2s on the Hudson line

Post by CTRailfan » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:55 pm

RearOfSignal wrote:
CTRailfan wrote:Oy vey. The infrastructure can't handle the new trains. So instead of actually fixing it, just put a software patch on to limit power usage. Great. At least the H&H have some future expansion capability without adding any more track, sidings, slots, or anything else complicated. Just build a brand new power distribution system and they could increase the capacity with 12-car trains on the lower parts.... That we can't blame MN for, as Albany would have to give them funding to fix it right...
Not really, the signal system is the real thing holding back expansion on the upper Harlem(North of NWP). The signal blocks are too long, so the headways are between trains are lengthy, don't remember the actual numbers. MNR has studied adding a 3rd track from CP 117 up to CP 123. Besides MNR runs 10 car M3 trains up to Southeast and 12 cars as far as NWP. In fact that 12 car train only uses 10 cars going north -the head 2 are closed, that head open car is usually empty.

But we're talking about M2 and other New Haven electric equipment being used on the Hudson.
Right, the power draw numbers are very, very similar though between M2's and M3's and M8's and M7's. So they are going to be limited in terms of adding more cars to accommodate the influx of NHL passengers riding on the Harlem...

DutchRailnut
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Re: M-2s on the Hudson line

Post by DutchRailnut » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:08 pm

the only real power restriction on trains over 8 cars is from NWP to Southeast, it was designed for 6 cars maximum.
rest of H&H was geared for bigger power draw, but consist are suppose to be able to go anywhere.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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CTRailfan
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Re: M-2s on the Hudson line

Post by CTRailfan » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:17 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:the only real power restriction on trains over 8 cars is from NWP to Southeast, it was designed for 6 cars maximum.
rest of H&H was geared for bigger power draw, but consist are suppose to be able to go anywhere.
Exactly, it's unfortunate they can't run longer trains out of Southeast, as a lot of Danbury line riders are headed to that section now...

RearOfSignal
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Re: M-2s on the Hudson line

Post by RearOfSignal » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:34 pm

CTRailfan wrote:
DutchRailnut wrote:the only real power restriction on trains over 8 cars is from NWP to Southeast, it was designed for 6 cars maximum.
rest of H&H was geared for bigger power draw, but consist are suppose to be able to go anywhere.
Exactly, it's unfortunate they can't run longer trains out of Southeast, as a lot of Danbury line riders are headed to that section now...
They run 10 cars to Southeast regularly, I've worked those trains several times. M3s of course.
Hurry up and wait at the signal!

Amtrak7
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Re: M-2s on the Hudson line

Post by Amtrak7 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:38 pm

Isn't electrification to Southeast relatively new? Why does it have the lowest capacities?

DutchRailnut
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Re: M-2s on the Hudson line

Post by DutchRailnut » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:42 pm

the electrification north of NWP was never expected to go beyond 6 cars, it did however but limitations were only overridden by raising voltage from 700 volt to 770 volt to reduce current.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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NH2060
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Re: M-2s on the Hudson line

Post by NH2060 » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:28 pm

Amtrak7 wrote:Isn't electrification to Southeast relatively new?
30 years young on June 9th if you go by the official dedication date ;-) Though I believe it was in service a couple of months or so prior. (Both points taken from Tom Nelligan's Commuter Trains To Grand Central)

When was the last time any of the New Haven M-series cars saw revenue service on either the Hudson or Harlem?

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