Equipment cycles

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, nomis, Jeff Smith, FL9AC

lirr42
Posts: 2726
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:16 pm
Location: Montauk, NY (MP 115.8)

Re: Equipment cycles

Post by lirr42 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:50 pm

No SLE trains normally make Danbury Branch runs (they are all Maxi-bombs with one remaining mini-bomb). The SLE set usually makes the midday run on the Waterbury Branch weekdays only.

Though anything can happen on the railroad.

NHAirLine
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 4:10 pm

Re: Equipment cycles

Post by NHAirLine » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:47 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:There are enough P32acdm's for current service, there are not enough P32acdm's for service expansion.
Isn't the line into GCT maxxed out during rush hour anyways?

lirr42
Posts: 2726
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:16 pm
Location: Montauk, NY (MP 115.8)

Re: Equipment cycles

Post by lirr42 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:54 pm

I think he means PSAS-style service expansions, Mr. AirLine

runningwithscalpels
Posts: 705
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:01 pm
Location: Waterbury Branch MP 22.0

Re: Equipment cycles

Post by runningwithscalpels » Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:35 pm

SouthernRailway wrote:Is the Shore Line East train on the Danbury branch only during the workweek or does it also run on weekends?
Do you mean Waterbury? If so, it's a weekday thing.
Change at Bridgeport for service to Derby-Shelton, Ansonia, Seymour, Beacon Falls, Naugatuck and Waterbury

NHAirLine
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 4:10 pm

Re: Equipment cycles

Post by NHAirLine » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:32 pm

lirr42 wrote:I think he means PSAS-style service expansions, Mr. AirLine
PSAS would need loco-hauled electric. With the scale of that service being relatively small, service from Danbury would require switching trains somewhere.

lirr42
Posts: 2726
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:16 pm
Location: Montauk, NY (MP 115.8)

Re: Equipment cycles

Post by lirr42 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:31 pm

No, PSAS will require M8's for New Haven Line service and P32's and Shoreliners for Hudson Line service.

And no, we can't switch the New Haven PSAS to eletric hauled coaches, ConnDOT purchased extra M8's for this purpose already. We're not going to have loads of extra M8's lying around and that won't end well.
And no, we can't electrify the Empire Connection under any form. Too much money for too few riders.

DutchRailnut
Posts: 22256
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: released from Stalag 13

Re: Equipment cycles

Post by DutchRailnut » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:01 am

Where did you get that CDOT bought extra M-8's for PSAS ?? not true
even the cars bought for SLE are already required on New Haven/GCT due to ridership increase.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

Retired Triebfahrzeugführer. I am not a moderator.

NHAirLine
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 4:10 pm

Re: Equipment cycles

Post by NHAirLine » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:03 pm

lirr42 wrote:No, PSAS will require M8's for New Haven Line service and P32's and Shoreliners for Hudson Line service.

And no, we can't switch the New Haven PSAS to eletric hauled coaches, ConnDOT purchased extra M8's for this purpose already. We're not going to have loads of extra M8's lying around and that won't end well.
And no, we can't electrify the Empire Connection under any form. Too much money for too few riders.
They have not bought cars for something that might not happen at all... The M-8's are technically incapable of running the route. The third rail extension idea is idiotic when there's already commuter equipment that runs that route, and does it in style (albeit only a few times a year for eggball games). For the Empire Connection, that's an easy case for third rail, as they could switch from under-running to over-running on the fly and use EMU's, which are ideally suited for a third-rail based service. Diesels really only make sense if they could make a true dual-mode loco that would fire up for the Empire Connection, and then shut the engine down at Spyuten Duvil and run third rail to Croton Harmon, not the crippled and poorly designed P32's. Even then, EMU's make a lot more sense for that route.

They also seem hell bent on running M-8's on SLE, which will happen, but will screw them now at NLC and screw them later when they try to extend to Westerly and hit low-levels. They should have switched SLE to loco-hauled electric in 1999, but they were too stupid to do it... Now they have the golden chance to buy cheap toasters that would be like strapping a rocket to the back of a little 4-car train, but no, they are going to blow the big bucks on new M-8's that are way over-designed for a route that uses only overhead wire. The M-8's are amazing cars, and fantastic at running the busiest passenger rail line in North America, but they are horrifically expensive and over-designed for any route that's not NHV-GCT or a part of it where the Pelham Pantograph Plunge is required at speed.

NH2060
Posts: 1518
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:44 pm

Re: Equipment cycles

Post by NH2060 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:21 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:Where did you get that CDOT bought extra M-8's for PSAS ?? not true
even the cars bought for SLE are already required on New Haven/GCT due to ridership increase.
1) Well something's gotta cover that service IF it ever starts (and given the support for it at least in the Bronx anything's fair game after ESA opens).

2) Then what the heck's going to cover SLE after 2016? Aside from maybe a handful of diesel sets to cover New London, Westerly, et all should the high level platform issue not be resolved by then the rest of the fleet is going to NHHS. To not use the M-8s on either PSAS or SLE would be a waste of time and money spent on making them compatible with the different catenary systems; and given all the trouble Kawasaki and MNR/ConnDOT went through getting them to finally work after how many delays I don't think they'd like to see that all go to waste either.

Keep in mind there's still one final 68-car option yet to be picked up. Kawasaki will still be churning them out for the next 1 1/2 to 2 years at least so it wouldn't be a bad idea to nip it in the bud while production hasn't shut down.
NHAirLine wrote:
lirr42 wrote:No, PSAS will require M8's for New Haven Line service and P32's and Shoreliners for Hudson Line service.

And no, we can't switch the New Haven PSAS to eletric hauled coaches, ConnDOT purchased extra M8's for this purpose already. We're not going to have loads of extra M8's lying around and that won't end well.
And no, we can't electrify the Empire Connection under any form. Too much money for too few riders.
They have not bought cars for something that might not happen at all... The M-8's are technically incapable of running the route. The third rail extension idea is idiotic when there's already commuter equipment that runs that route, and does it in style (albeit only a few times a year for eggball games). For the Empire Connection, that's an easy case for third rail, as they could switch from under-running to over-running on the fly and use EMU's, which are ideally suited for a third-rail based service. Diesels really only make sense if they could make a true dual-mode loco that would fire up for the Empire Connection, and then shut the engine down at Spyuten Duvil and run third rail to Croton Harmon, not the crippled and poorly designed P32's. Even then, EMU's make a lot more sense for that route.
Well not entirely true they can run on the Hell Gate Line, just not past the Queens side approach to the Hell Gate bridge (where the LIRR overrunning third rail would be extended to from Harold). But you're correct in that at the moment they cannot go all the way to Penn. The real dealmakers or breakers in PSAS is LIRR going to GCT, community support in the Bronx, support from the MTA, approval from Amtrak, approval to extend the third rail, etc. I personally don't know what to make of MNR going to Penn as the existing service pattern(s) to/from GCT don't exactly need fixing or tweaking (let alone are near or at capacity due to track constraints), but that is ultimately the MTA's call.
They also seem hell bent on running M-8's on SLE, which will happen, but will screw them now at NLC and screw them later when they try to extend to Westerly and hit low-levels. They should have switched SLE to loco-hauled electric in 1999, but they were too stupid to do it... Now they have the golden chance to buy cheap toasters that would be like strapping a rocket to the back of a little 4-car train, but no, they are going to blow the big bucks on new M-8's that are way over-designed for a route that uses only overhead wire. The M-8's are amazing cars, and fantastic at running the busiest passenger rail line in North America, but they are horrifically expensive and over-designed for any route that's not NHV-GCT or a part of it where the Pelham Pantograph Plunge is required at speed.
It's a little more complicated than that. Using any electric power would have required ConnDOT to pay Amtrak fees for using the catenary system for a service that, keep in mind, did not have nearly as big a schedule as it does now. In 2000 there were at most 8(?) round trips on weekdays including the "Reverse Express" runs with no weekend service other than the OpSail trains. Today SLE has 15 round trips and would likely be greater than that right now if not for the lack of double platforms at most stations.

As F-Line noted in the GP40-2H thread there are some AEM-7s in good enough condition for use after Amtrak retires them. But then you'd still have the problem of coaches and seeing as there are only 33 Mafersas (did ConnDOT buy the remaining 5 cars from VRE too or did VRE keep them?) for the 62 mile NHHS line that also plans on running 14-17 round trips with presumably 3-5 cars per train there's very little, if any coaching stock, that can be spared elsewhere even for SLE; that is unless ConnDOT buys up some of the retired MBTA Bombardier coaches, etc. I'm sure some equipment will be set aside for NLC and Westerly if worst comes to worst putting in even a 1/2 car length mini high for the M-8s will be too much of a challenge thanks to the curvature problem.

Another problem with AEM-7s is they're essentially foreign equipment in a sea of dual power EMUs and Geeps and GEs. Part of the reason for the M-8s being used on SLE is the ability for GCT-OSB/NLC/etc. through trains which obviously can't be done with a Toaster and even if NYP-NHV-OSB/NLC, etc. was an option that'd still require displacing an existing GCT train and unless it was replacing a super express run from NHV I doubt such a move could be justified. Plus having the AEM-7s brought into the mix adds another unique class of locomotive to ConnDOT's roster making maintenance, etc. less streamlined. And even if that weren't a problem and they were to contract the maintenance of those motors out to Amtrak is the NHV "facility" adequate enough to tend to one should it fall ill, so to speak?

And forget about the HHP-8s. They go back to Bombardier the moment they've rolled their last miles. Though I would like to see one painted in a McGuiness scheme myself ;-)

Don't get me wrong though your argument about using the ol' Toasters isn't exactly without merit, it's just not likely feasible from ConnDOT's end. I myself once made drawings of "what if" MNR/ConnDOT AEM-7 paint schemes. Granted I was 8 or 9, but still :-P

Backshophoss
Posts: 6319
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:58 pm

Re: Equipment cycles

Post by Backshophoss » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:58 am

The current SLE loco hauled fleet will transfer to NHHS services when the M-8's are tested and OK'ed for the 25kv wire,
and the stations have Hi-level platforms installed.
It's HIGHLY unlikely CDOT will lease/buy Hippos or Meatballs.(or ALDP-45's for that matter)
The Land of Enchantment is not Flyover country!

Clean Cab
Posts: 2893
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:18 pm
Location: South Dennis Massachusetts

Re: Equipment cycles

Post by Clean Cab » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:53 am

It's unlikely CDOT will buy anything. They can't even pay for a decent paint job on the P-40's they bought from Amtrak. Let's face it, they're broke!!
I'm stuck on a sandbar on Cape Cod, and I couldn't be happier!!!

NHAirLine
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 4:10 pm

Re: Equipment cycles

Post by NHAirLine » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:09 pm

NH2060 wrote:1) Well something's gotta cover that service IF it ever starts (and given the support for it at least in the Bronx anything's fair game after ESA opens).
They haven't bought equipment for a currently proposed service. That would be insanity at it's finest.
2) Then what the heck's going to cover SLE after 2016? Aside from maybe a handful of diesel sets to cover New London, Westerly, et all should the high level platform issue not be resolved by then the rest of the fleet is going to NHHS. To not use the M-8s on either PSAS or SLE would be a waste of time and money spent on making them compatible with the different catenary systems; and given all the trouble Kawasaki and MNR/ConnDOT went through getting them to finally work after how many delays I don't think they'd like to see that all go to waste either.

Keep in mind there's still one final 68-car option yet to be picked up. Kawasaki will still be churning them out for the next 1 1/2 to 2 years at least so it wouldn't be a bad idea to nip it in the bud while production hasn't shut down.
There's got to be some extra single-level passenger gear out there somewhere... Having a diesel fleet to cover the longest runs makes NO sense. Making them 25kV capable was no big deal, you just run the two transformers in series instead of parallel... the 25hz was the hard part (heavy part) and that's why they skipped it. I really doubt they care if they ever see 25kV service. They work very well for the service they do run on teh 12.5kV line.
Well not entirely true they can run on the Hell Gate Line, just not past the Queens side approach to the Hell Gate bridge (where the LIRR overrunning third rail would be extended to from Harold). But you're correct in that at the moment they cannot go all the way to Penn. The real dealmakers or breakers in PSAS is LIRR going to GCT, community support in the Bronx, support from the MTA, approval from Amtrak, approval to extend the third rail, etc. I personally don't know what to make of MNR going to Penn as the existing service pattern(s) to/from GCT don't exactly need fixing or tweaking (let alone are near or at capacity due to track constraints), but that is ultimately the MTA's call.
Right. Yes, technically they can run to the 60hz/25hz line, past a total of zero stations and then turn around, which would be difficult in and of itself with the traffic levels there. Riiiight. I feel like they could do it without using much capacity at Penn if they used NJT run-through sets, and instead of sending current NJT trains back to New Jersey, they ran through each direction...
It's a little more complicated than that. Using any electric power would have required ConnDOT to pay Amtrak fees for using the catenary system for a service that, keep in mind, did not have nearly as big a schedule as it does now. In 2000 there were at most 8(?) round trips on weekdays including the "Reverse Express" runs with no weekend service other than the OpSail trains. Today SLE has 15 round trips and would likely be greater than that right now if not for the lack of double platforms at most stations.
I guess diesel fuel was cheap back then. Today it's a no-brainer...
As F-Line noted in the GP40-2H thread there are some AEM-7s in good enough condition for use after Amtrak retires them. But then you'd still have the problem of coaches and seeing as there are only 33 Mafersas (did ConnDOT buy the remaining 5 cars from VRE too or did VRE keep them?) for the 62 mile NHHS line that also plans on running 14-17 round trips with presumably 3-5 cars per train there's very little, if any coaching stock, that can be spared elsewhere even for SLE; that is unless ConnDOT buys up some of the retired MBTA Bombardier coaches, etc. I'm sure some equipment will be set aside for NLC and Westerly if worst comes to worst putting in even a 1/2 car length mini high for the M-8s will be too much of a challenge thanks to the curvature problem.

Another problem with AEM-7s is they're essentially foreign equipment in a sea of dual power EMUs and Geeps and GEs. Part of the reason for the M-8s being used on SLE is the ability for GCT-OSB/NLC/etc. through trains which obviously can't be done with a Toaster and even if NYP-NHV-OSB/NLC, etc. was an option that'd still require displacing an existing GCT train and unless it was replacing a super express run from NHV I doubt such a move could be justified. Plus having the AEM-7s brought into the mix adds another unique class of locomotive to ConnDOT's roster making maintenance, etc. less streamlined. And even if that weren't a problem and they were to contract the maintenance of those motors out to Amtrak is the NHV "facility" adequate enough to tend to one should it fall ill, so to speak?
Have Amtrak or NJT maintain them. MARC subs out to Amtrak. MBTA should electrify Providence, and their main objection, about them being a diesel shop, they could ship their locos off as well for maintenance. The concept of run-through on SLE is stupid. They should even consider canceling the STM run-through, as it makes a real traffic jam at STM. But for SLE-GCT, why would you run a 4-car set in a GCT slot when you could run an 8-10 car from NHV? And why would you run an 8 car-set east of NHV on a commuter line that can only handle 4-car trains? If they are going to do PSAS, they could share a loco fleet for SLE and PSAS, although I'd suspect PSAS would want newer/ more powerful gear than the toasters.
And forget about the HHP-8s. They go back to Bombardier the moment they've rolled their last miles. Though I would like to see one painted in a McGuiness scheme myself ;-)

Don't get me wrong though your argument about using the ol' Toasters isn't exactly without merit, it's just not likely feasible from ConnDOT's end. I myself once made drawings of "what if" MNR/ConnDOT AEM-7 paint schemes. Granted I was 8 or 9, but still :-P
It's not unfeasible at all. It's the obvious choice. And with CDOT's paint jobs on the P40's, I think McGuiness Toasters is way more of a fantasy than toasters with Connecticut Commuter Rail stickers lol.

User avatar
jt42cwr
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 12:37 pm

Re: Equipment cycles

Post by jt42cwr » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:23 pm

Cheers guys, something to get stuck into.

Return to “MTA Metro-North Railroad and CtDOT Passenger Rail”