Shoreliner Discussion

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

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SouthernRailway
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Re: Shoreliner Car Thread

Post by SouthernRailway » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:21 pm

Tadman wrote:Fake wood grain screams "Bad idea from 1968"
I agree completely. I must assume that Metro-North and whoever designed NJ Transit's EMUs just saved money by having the engineering department do interior design for railcars.

Tadman
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Re: Shoreliner Car Thread

Post by Tadman » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:17 am

It was ubiquitous throughout that era. Whether you were buying a Jersey Arrow or a Facel Vega (a Rolls-Royce Autos competitor) you got simulated wood grain metal/plastic. I think it was considered to mix the good taste of wood design with durability. #barf...
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runningwithscalpels
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Re: Shoreliner Car Thread

Post by runningwithscalpels » Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:12 pm

Even the brown at the ends of M8's remind me too much of the panelling.

That said, Arrows have everything beat on hideous panelling. Hands down!
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Nasadowsk
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Re: Shoreliner Car Thread

Post by Nasadowsk » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:15 pm

Tadman wrote:Fake wood grain screams "Bad idea from 1968" although the new fake wood grain used in superliner sleepers is a much warmer color than the typical faux-walnut found in most commuter trains.
It's not 'fake woodgrain', it's 'genuine simulated vinyl woodgrain' ;)

djmarco121
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Re: Shoreliner Car Thread

Post by djmarco121 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:25 pm

Updated Named Shoreliner Car list


6101

Shoreliner I

STORM KING



6103

Shoreliner I

HALF MOON



6105

Shoreliner I

TEAR OF THE CLOUDS



6107

Shoreliner I

CLEARWATER



6109

Shoreliner I

SCENIC HIGHLANDS



6111

Shoreliner II

THE MARIA MITCHELL COMET



6113

Shoreliner II

SENESQUA FLYER



6115

Shoreliner II

THE KNICKERBOCKER



6117

Shoreliner II

SUGAR MAPLE



6119

Shoreliner II

MANITOGA



6121

Shoreliner II

ICHABOD CRANE



6123

Shoreliner II

AMERICAN EAGLE



6150

Shoreliner I

ELEANOR ROOSEVELT



6151

Shoreliner I

HENRY HUDSON



6152

Shoreliner I

POUGHKEEPSIE



6153

Shoreliner I

DUTCHESS



6154

Shoreliner I

COLD SPRING



6155

Shoreliner I

WASHINGTON IRVING



6156

Shoreliner I

BEACON



6157

Shoreliner I

WESTCHESTER



6158

Shoreliner I

NEW HAMBURG



6159

Shoreliner I

PUTNAM



6160

Shoreliner I

GARRISON



6161

Shoreliner II

THOMAS WOLFE



6162

Shoreliner I

PEEKSKILL



6163

Shoreliner II

THELONIUS MONK



6164

Shoreliner I

MONTROSE



6165

Shoreliner II

JOHN CHEEVER



6166

Shoreliner I

CRUGERS



6167

Shoreliner II

RAVEN'S WAY



6168

Shoreliner II

THE MAHICAN



6169

Shoreliner II

THOMAS COLE



6170

Shoreliner II

EMPIRE STATE



6171

Shoreliner II

THE WATER LEVEL



6172

Shoreliner II

THE NORTH STAR



6173

Shoreliner II

CORTLANDT



6174

Shoreliner II

MATHEW VASSAR



6175

Shoreliner II

WORKING CLASS HERO



6176

Comet II

SAMUEL MORSE / SLOATSBURG (WOH Name Changed)



6177

Shoreliner II

SHAD RUN



6178

Comet II

GEORGE CLINTON



6179

Shoreliner II

BANNERMANS ISLAND



6180

Comet II

ROBERT FULTON / MIDDLETOWN (WOH Name Changed)



6182

Shoreliner II

SALISBURY MILLS-CORNWALL



6184

Shoreliner II

JAMES FENNIMORE CLINTON



6186

Shoreliner II

NELSON ROCKEFELLER



6188

Shoreliner II

SOJOURNER TRUTH



6190

Shoreliner II

COMMODORE VANDERBILT



6201

Shoreliner I

THE CONNECTICUT YANKEE



6203

Shoreliner I

THE DANBURY HATTER



6205

Shoreliner I

THE NUTMEGGER



6207

Shoreliner I

THE COAST WATCHER



6209

Shoreliner I

THE CHARTER OAK



6211

Shoreliner II

THE CONSTITUTION STATE



6213

Shoreliner II

CANDLEWOOD LAKE



6215

Shoreliner II

THE BIRMINGHAM



6217

Shoreliner II

YANKEE DOODLE



6219

Shoreliner II

THE HUSKING BEE



6223

Shoreliner II

MARK TWAIN



6225

Shoreliner II

THE YANKEE CLIPPER



6227

Shoreliner II

THE CONNECTICUT RIVER



6229

Shoreliner II

THE SLEEPING GIANT



6230

Shoreliner II

J.P. MORGAN



6232

Shoreliner II

HARRIET BEECHER STOWE



6234

Shoreliner II

UNCAS



6236

Shoreliner II

CEDAR HILL



6238

Shoreliner II

ELI WHITNEY



6240

Shoreliner II

GOVERNOR JOHNATAN TRUMBULL



6250

Shoreliner I

GOVERNOR JOHN N. DEMPSEY



6251

Shoreliner I

MOUNTAIN LAUREL



6252

Shoreliner I

GOVERNOR ELLA T GRASSO



6253

Shoreliner I

NATHAN HALE



6254

Shoreliner I

GOVERNOR RAYMOND E. BALDWIN



6255

Shoreliner I

NOAH WEBSTER



6256

Shoreliner I

BETHEL



6257

Shoreliner I

P.T. BARNUM



6258

Shoreliner I

BRANCHVILLE



6259

Shoreliner I

CHARLES IVES



6260

Shoreliner I

REDDING



6262

Shoreliner I

WILTON



6264

Shoreliner I

NORWALK



6266

Shoreliner I

CANNONDALE



6268

Shoreliner I

FAIRFIELD COUNTY



6270

Shoreliner II

GOVERNOR. WILLIAM O'NIEL



6272

Shoreliner II

ROGER SHERMAN



6274

Shoreliner II

THE BRASS CITY



6276

Shoreliner II

THE NAUGATUCK VALLEY



6278

Shoreliner II

BEACON FALLS

jackintosh11
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Re: Shoreliner Car Thread

Post by jackintosh11 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:00 pm

Which cars only have the one window on the cab and which ones have 2?
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Re: Shoreliner Car Thread

Post by DutchRailnut » Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:30 am

The former west of Hudson shoreliners and the center door cars have a firemans side front window.
The original end door cars only have the Engineers window (plus the door)
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Jeff Smith
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Re: Shoreliner Discussion

Post by Jeff Smith » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:18 pm

Site Admin BUMP: I'll be merging in some threads because, hey, that's what I do, I'm OCD!

This article on SLE makes a quick reference at the end to replacement coaches. Which begs some questions, not just about Waterbury and Danbury, but system-wide:

-What is the expected life of these coaches? Have they undergone any rebuilds?

-When did they go into service? I know there are various versions of the Shoreliner, all ordered at different times based on need and funding, whether by NYS or CtDOT.

-Would replacements be part and parcel of any bilevel order?

Hartford Courant
Commissioner James Redeker has said he envisions buying new trains for the Waterbury and Danbury branch lines at the same time. All of those orders would probably be done in conjunction with Metro-North, the Long Island Rail Road and possibly other public transportation systems to reduce costs, Redeker said.
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F-line to Dudley via Park
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Re: Shoreliner Discussion

Post by F-line to Dudley via Park » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:59 pm

-- Shoreliner I's date to 1982 and got 2 sets of midlife rebuilds: '96 and '08. Too shot for rebuild #3, and a small fleet at 43. They're toast, both the red ones and blue ones.

-- Shoreliner II's built '87-88, rebuilt '08 simultaneous with the Shoreliner I's. Also a small fleet at 29. Not economical to rebuild, so those probably go simultaneous with the I's.

-- Shoreliner III's and IV's are near-identical, built in multiple installments '96-02. Never rebuilt. 106 III's, 10 active IV's + 1 IV wreck victim that's probably never coming back.

-- East-of-Hudson Comet II's were built '82, rebuilt '99 and '09. 29 active. Toast, and NJT is purging all its Comet IIM's as first order of business so no upside in keeping the oldest ones fresh.

-- West-of-Hudson Comet V's were built 2004. 64 active.


Of these, CDOT owns 23 of the I's, 10 of the II's, and all of the IV's. The Shoreliner III's and Comet II's are MTA-only. Comet V's are west-of-Hudson -only.


The MTA intends on going all bi-level. They have no choice EoH with Upper Hudson and Upper Harlem capacity problems, so that's a complete purge of the Comet II's and all the blue Shoreliners of every class. Comet V's are intertwined with NJT's purging strategy which targets 2025 as the year they achieve 100% bi-level. NJT has 260 Comet IIM's and IV's it has to dispose of first before it even gets around to a decision on option orders for replacing the V's, so another 10 years of service on the WoH fleet before replacement is a pretty solid bet.

For CDOT it depends. They can join in on the MLV order...but play red tape with with the MTA on which ones get assigned to the MNRR branchline pool vs. the CDOT-solo pool. Or they can play scrap-n'-swap by junking all their Shoreliner I's and II's, and swapping title deeds with the MTA on a selection of III's to send out for rebuild. Maybe even junk the Mafersas in the process and take on more ex-MTA III's, because then they'd have a uniform-lineage Shoreliner III+IV fleet that can all go into GCT (Mafersas can't because of underclearance issues). Rebuilding flats isn't economical for all that many agencies nowadays, but CDOT could probably justify it if it went all-in on a decision for uniform rehabbed fleet with padded numbers that cover all foreseeable service expansion during their rebuild lifetime. Say they pick up 80 of the 106 III's from the MTA to replace 33 I's and II's, 33 Mafersas, and 1 wrecked IV...and add 13 units of expansion to cover Waterbury/Danbury headway improvements, Hartford Line full-blast service, and future-proofing for some combination of New Milford extension / Hartford-Waterbury / joint MassDOT run-thrus from Northampton/Greenfield to Hartford. Then cannibalize or store the remaining 26 units as parts cache for the rebuild program to bring down the total cost of the program. Unless the MTA wants to hold on to a few sets for work trains, excursions, or something.

^That^ they can probably get good value out of if they aren't up for buying all-new or fighting it out with the MTA for what can get assigned outside of MNRR ops.

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Re: Shoreliner Discussion

Post by mvb119 » Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:44 pm

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:
-- Shoreliner III's and IV's are near-identical, built in multiple installments '96-02. Never rebuilt. 106 III's, 10 active IV's + 1 IV wreck victim that's probably never coming back.

Of these, CDOT owns 23 of the I's, 10 of the II's, and all of the IV's. The Shoreliner III's and Comet II's are MTA-only. Comet V's are west-of-Hudson -only.
Maybe Dutch or somebody else from Metro North can correct me if I am wrong, but the III's and IV's are not identical, Shoreliner III's were built in 1991 and have a door where the engineer sits in the cab car, the Shoreliner IV does not. The Shoreliner III's predate the NJT accident in Secaucus where the engineer was killed, and the FRA required stronger corner posts, eliminating the door next to the engineer.The III's also have the much hated fake wood grain whereas the IV's have the white and gray walls on the interior. There are plenty of Shoreliner IVs running around in blue.

NH2060
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Re: Shoreliner Discussion

Post by NH2060 » Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:25 am

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:The MTA intends on going all bi-level. They have no choice EoH with Upper Hudson and Upper Harlem capacity problems, so that's a complete purge of the Comet II's and all the blue Shoreliners of every class... NJT has 260 Comet IIM's and IV's it has to dispose of first before it even gets around to a decision on option orders for replacing the V's, so another 10 years of service on the WoH fleet before replacement is a pretty solid bet.
Too bad the IIM's weren't up for grabs sooner. Just slap an "NH" logo on one end and a "CTrail"/CT Commuter Rail logo on the other over the disco stripe logos and they're good to go :-D
For CDOT it depends. They can join in on the MLV order...but play red tape with with the MTA on which ones get assigned to the MNRR branchline pool vs. the CDOT-solo pool. Or they can play scrap-n'-swap by junking all their Shoreliner I's and II's, and swapping title deeds with the MTA on a selection of III's to send out for rebuild.
Rebuilding flats isn't economical for all that many agencies nowadays, but CDOT could probably justify it if it went all-in on a decision for uniform rehabbed fleet with padded numbers that cover all foreseeable service expansion during their rebuild lifetime. Say they pick up 80 of the 106 III's from the MTA to replace 33 I's and II's, 33 Mafersas, and 1 wrecked IV...and add 13 units of expansion to cover Waterbury/Danbury headway improvements, Hartford Line full-blast service, and future-proofing for some combination of New Milford extension / Hartford-Waterbury / joint MassDOT run-thrus from Northampton/Greenfield to Hartford. Then cannibalize or store the remaining 26 units as parts cache for the rebuild program to bring down the total cost of the program. Unless the MTA wants to hold on to a few sets for work trains, excursions, or something.
They may end up needing all 106 and then some to cover all that and make any trains longer on the Hartford Line should ridership really take off better than expected. Case in point the newly reopened Borders Railway in Scotland quickly became a victim of its own success when overcrowding conditions forced trains to be cancelled. The politicians, etc. there really underestimated just how many people would ride it at 600,000 riders projected for the year vs. 125,000 actual for just the first month alone. The I-91 corridor has New Haven, Hartford, and Springfield all in one...

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Re: Shoreliner Discussion

Post by Jeff Smith » Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:20 pm

At the level Malloy is talking about adding service, and as F-Line has noted, I agree, acquiring the NYS Shoreliner's for branch and new service may be the ticket. Waterbury will likely be increasing service at some point in the near future; Danbury should increase service, there's a potential New Milford extension (imagine an FL9 pulling some shoreliners in NON-fan trip service foam foam!), and Waterbury - Berlin - Hartford in addition to just the Hartford line. Then there's much further off New London "Knowledge Corridor" service, or service to Worcester. And SLE extension may not be far off to Westerly (I doubt they'd use M8's beyond OSB; just not enough).
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YamaOfParadise
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Re: Shoreliner Discussion

Post by YamaOfParadise » Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:14 pm

Jeff Smith wrote:And SLE extension may not be far off to Westerly (I doubt they'd use M8's beyond OSB; just not enough).
Besides that valid point, they may determine that the costs for upgrading New London, Mystic, and Westerly for M8's isn't worth their cost-to-ridership numbers for initial service. (Mystic is low platform, non-handicap accessible, and on a fairly sharp curve; Westerly is also low-platform, but on a less-severe curve.)

I assume bilevels wouldn't be able to run under the NH Line electrification? I know the MBTA does run bilevels under Amtrak's North-end Electrification, so I know you can run bilevels under wire, but I would assume that during the construction of that system it was designed to have a high enough loading gauge for that.
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DutchRailnut
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Re: Shoreliner Discussion

Post by DutchRailnut » Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:00 pm

MN has ran bilevels and Multilevels on New haven without problems and is looking to buy multilevels similar to NJT cars as replacement for shoreliner cars.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: Shoreliner Discussion

Post by Jeff Smith » Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:48 pm

NJT has bilevels; catenary is not a problem.
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