Ring of Steel: Fare Gates at BOS, BON, & BBY

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Arlington
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Re: Ring of Steel: Fare Gates at BOS, BON, & BBY

Post by Arlington »

danib62 wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:05 pm
Arlington, in your opinion is it fare evasion if someone chooses to only purchase paper tickets knowing they’ll be less likely to be collected?
Choosing only paper as a strategy to make future payment less likely is part of a larger process of fare evasion that becomes evasive when the single use ticket is re-used on a second trip.
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Re: Ring of Steel: Fare Gates at BOS, BON, & BBY

Post by CRail »

That's not a matter of opinion either, it is in fact fare evasion.
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Arlington
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Re: Ring of Steel: Fare Gates at BOS, BON, & BBY

Post by Arlington »

danib62 wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:32 pm
I wonder if takes the bus and the farebox is broken if he mails the T a check...
If an employee actively tells me I don't have to pay--such as when the driver tells me not to bother with the fair box on a bus cuz it's broken-- then I don't pay.

An employee not checking my ticket is at most a form of *passive* communication that I might not have to pay--and therefore an insufficient justification for not paying a fare.

I try to always activate my m ticket before boarding as the app requests. Sometimes they forget and sometimes I forget. But I would never actively seek out an opportunity to game the system to not pay (which is pretty much the textbook definition of fare evasion)

We know that the standard deal is that every trip has a price that forms a contract of carriage, and when they uphold their side we owe them money.
Last edited by Arlington on Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Arlington
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Re: Ring of Steel: Fare Gates at BOS, BON, & BBY

Post by Arlington »

Fare non-payment and fare non compliance describes it whether it is accidental or on purpose

Fare evasion describes it when it is the result of planful action on the part of the rider
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Re: Ring of Steel: Fare Gates at BOS, BON, & BBY

Post by diburning »

Arlington wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:23 am
Danib62, Ishould have been more specific: once first used a paper or m ticket should permit unlimited gate uses within the next 3 hours (or whatever the real mticket/ticket duration is).
The thing is, the gates only check for a valid ticket. It does not invalidate the ticket. And if the ticket isn't actually used, then it is still a valid ticket. What if I used a paper ticket, went into the platform area, got an important phone call, and had to leave, and ended up not taking the ride? Would I never be able to use that ticket to get to the plaform again? The ticket is for a ride, which I did not take, not platform access.

Also, I'm curious to see how they will address how paper tickets are read by the gate. Someone riding inbound won't have their ticket read by the gate as an entry. Conductor punched tickets would also still be readable if it uses the magnetic strip. If the CR tickets are to switch to a QR type printed code, I wonder how many complaints they'll get when the FVM or the ticket window prints a ticket that the gate can't read. (FVMs use ink, RST terminals like the ones at the ticket windows are thermal)

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Re: Ring of Steel: Fare Gates at BOS, BON, & BBY

Post by danib62 »

diburning wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:33 am
What if I used a paper ticket, went into the platform area, got an important phone call, and had to leave, and ended up not taking the ride? Would I never be able to use that ticket to get to the plaform again?
What if you tap into the red line at Central and get an important phone call and had to leave? You don’t get your fare back...
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Re: Ring of Steel: Fare Gates at BOS, BON, & BBY

Post by Arlington »

diburning wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:33 am
The thing is, the gates only check for a valid ticket. It does not invalidate the ticket. And if the ticket isn't actually used, then it is still a valid ticket.
That's not how I'd design the gates. I'd have them print an insertion date/time on the ticket (and maybe print/read a qr code) so that it cannot be re-presented after a 3-hour "in use" perdiod. Adding a QR code to machine-printed tickets should be easy.
Last edited by CRail on Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Nesting quote removed.
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BandA
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Re: Ring of Steel: Fare Gates at BOS, BON, & BBY

Post by BandA »

You could also maintain a giant honking database of serial numbers of the paper tickets, and not allow them to be used more than once (or more than x+1 times for multiride tickets if such exist), or have magnetic info on all tickets which is updated by the fare gates. You could also position observers at the fare gates & arrest people using already punched single-ride tickets in the fare gates.

If everybody is getting a free ride, I want one too. If the train is late and packed like a sardine can, it isn't fair, nor is paying $6.50 for an 8 mile trip (80 cents per mile), which is 2.9 times the cost of "rapid transit" in the same area and more than my actual cost of driving including tolls, with four empty seats and luggage compartment to spare! Yet the MBTA claims to be losing money on the $6.50 fare...

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Re: Ring of Steel: Fare Gates at BOS, BON, & BBY

Post by Arborwayfan »

Adding fare gates to just some stations of a pay-the-conductor system seems to generate a whole new set of behaviors and a certain amount of disagreement about who is cheating whom, who is benefitting unfairly, and so on. Two quite different methods of payment with two quite different sets of assumptions about when in the travel process you actually pay coexist rather awkwardly. It is a lot like the doors on the Boeings. This is just about what the comments at the beginning of the thread say. This was predictable; many of you predicted it. :-D

Tap-on, tap-off POP with a unified fare structure for all modes and roving inspectors charging 10x the fare as a fine seems like it would be simpler, more effective, faster, and less morally uncertain all around. Oslo does this, but has one car per train -- clearly marked -- where you can board without a ticket and pay. Any other car, you get fined if caught without. Of course, that requires all-door boarding and plenty of space in all cars... Utah Frontrunner has a ticket machine on every platform; they have a lot fewer platforms and a lot more trains per day per platform, so that spreads out the cost.

Nothing new in my post, so here's this memory from about 1989:

Christmas Eve, or maybe Dec. 23, Needham Heights train: the conductor handed back all the paper tickets unpunched. Policy? Just him? Right? Wrong? I don't know. I do remember that I never got around to using the ticket before it expired -- I rarely rode the commuter rail and just happened to be on it that day.

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Re: Ring of Steel: Fare Gates at BOS, BON, & BBY

Post by CRail »

BandA wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:44 pm
...it isn't fair, nor is paying $6.50 for an 8 mile trip (80 cents per mile), which is 2.9 times the cost of "rapid transit" in the same area and more than my actual cost of driving including tolls, with four empty seats and luggage compartment to spare! Yet the MBTA claims to be losing money on the $6.50 fare...
Interesting that the person who touts repeatedly that the MBTA is insolvent and should be in receivership now complains that their prices are too high.
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diburning
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Re: Ring of Steel: Fare Gates at BOS, BON, & BBY

Post by diburning »

danib62 wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:01 am
diburning wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:33 am
What if I used a paper ticket, went into the platform area, got an important phone call, and had to leave, and ended up not taking the ride? Would I never be able to use that ticket to get to the plaform again?
What if you tap into the red line at Central and get an important phone call and had to leave? You don’t get your fare back...
That's different. The value has been deducted and the "ride" is "collected". The commuter rail ticket would still be valid for travel. If the gates "collected" the ticket, then that would be an equivalency. Even if the gates wouldn't let me back through, the ticket is still valid, and I could still use the ticket for an inbound ride as the ticket has not been "used." Maybe the gates should have a scanner to tap out as well so that if lets say I tap a ticket to get in, and then tap it within a short period of time to get out, it would know. It would also catch any inbound fare evaders, although they'd have to set up a system where fare evaders would have the ability to pay to get out. (Hey, it works for WMATA!)
BandA wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:44 pm
You could also position observers at the fare gates & arrest people using already punched single-ride tickets in the fare gates.
If they can have that many observers watching the gates, then why would the gates be necessary at all?
Arborwayfan wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:21 pm
Tap-on, tap-off POP with a unified fare structure for all modes and roving inspectors charging 10x the fare as a fine seems like it would be simpler, more effective, faster, and less morally uncertain all around.
I think that is the ultimate plan, and these gates will be utilized in that fashion as tapping targets when AFC 2.0 is deployed.

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Re: Ring of Steel: Fare Gates at BOS, BON, & BBY

Post by Rbts Stn »

Sorry, been away from the board a couple of days. Should have expected to have the morality question come up, and was interested to read replies on both sides of the issue.

And yes, my position is I will never evade a fare, but I also will not go out of my way to pay if Keolis isn't trying to collect my fare. Think of me how you please. I know I could be morally stronger, I could also be morally weaker.

Anecdotally, watching my fellow commuters, I can tell you that almost no one activates prior to boarding the train. Maybe they do when the fare checkers are out there, but on "normal" days I see everyone activate when the conductor is coming through the train. I can't count how many times I have activated and the conductor doesn't get to my row -- I guess I'm not doing my evading as well as I could!


I am still waiting for the refund for my Green Line ride from GC to Cleveland Circle on that hot summer day when they lost power just east of Park Street and I had to walk in the tunnel in the dark to Boylston and take a cab to Cleveland Circle. I didn't ask the MBTA to pay for the cab fare or my dry cleaning bill, just to refund me the $2.25 (at the time) fare I paid to get me from Point A to Point B.

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Re: Ring of Steel: Fare Gates at BOS, BON, & BBY

Post by Disney Guy »

... refund for my Green Line ride from GC to Cleveland Circle on that hot summer day when they lost power just east of Park Street and I had to walk in the tunnel in the dark to Boylston and take a cab ... just to refund me the $2.25 (at the time) fare I paid ...
Have you ever ridden the commuter rail using a single ride ticket and the conductor did not come by? If so then call it even.

Could someone recap, why did Proof Of Payment never catch on in Boston?

One advantage of using two single ride tickets as opposed to one round trip ticket is, if a second conductor comes by you on the same train trip or if delays or problems or IRROPS forces you to get off and take the next train then you show just the first ticket and expect it to be honored after your explanation.
... If an employee actively tells me I don't have to pay--such as when the driver tells me not to bother with the fair box on a bus 'cuz' it's broken ...
... or if someone in a wheelchair is boarding via the ramp in the middle of a Type 8 (has stairs between the door and the farebox) ...

The driver can certainly announce an empty promise over the loudspeaker, "I have radioed ahead for a fare inspector to come take your fare," not specifying where and when and not expecting you not to disembark prior.
... 40 gates would process 400 in a minute and a whole 1400 person train in 3minutes 30 seconds ...
That would not be correct because we need to allow time for both boarding passengers and exiting passengers.
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Arlington
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Re: Ring of Steel: Fare Gates at BOS, BON, & BBY

Post by Arlington »

^ Your milage may vary, but note that 30 initial gates at 10 per minute is 300 per minute and 18,000 per hour.

Total Northside ridership is about 40,000 trips per weekday.

If 20k arrive in a 2hour window in the morning, the gates are only 20/36th (55%) utilized.

Evenings are more spread. If 20k left in 2.5 hours the gates would be 20/45th (44%) utilized.

The Garden's capacity is about 20k. If half of them (10k) arrived by CR inbound in an hour that completely coincided with an hour of the 2.5 hour PM peak there would be exactly the right capacity to handle them.

But I have modeled an exaggerated worst case: IIRC a rush peak at NS is 14k in and 14k out with the other 12k per day being non peak. (Call it 7k per hour during about 4 peak hours, and just 1k per hour during another 12 hours).

Still no reason to believe that there will be significant delays at the gates.
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Re: Ring of Steel: Fare Gates at BOS, BON, & BBY

Post by Rbts Stn »

Disney Guy wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:36 am
... refund for my Green Line ride from GC to Cleveland Circle on that hot summer day when they lost power just east of Park Street and I had to walk in the tunnel in the dark to Boylston and take a cab ... just to refund me the $2.25 (at the time) fare I paid ...
Have you ever ridden the commuter rail using a single ride ticket and the conductor did not come by? If so then call it even.

So that's $7. The taxi cost me $20, so I'd be 1/3 of the way there. But I've already been told I should activate my ticket before boarding, so now I'm more confused!

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