LIRR P72 coaches... where'd they go?

Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.

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jhdeasy
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Re: LIRR P72 coaches... where'd they go?

Post by jhdeasy » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:06 pm

workextra wrote:The LIRR probably got ripped off for the cars OR the new owners are selling them for a huge mark up on the cost.
What would a railroad value the cars at today? (to operate)
what would a scrap dealer value them at today? (to recycle)
The cars were offered through competiive bid and purchased for a very low price. The price per car may have been even lower than LongIslandTool noted.

One entrepreneur, who I know personally, purchased the whole lot. There was much risk involved in this investment in search of profit. The initial investment was only the up-front cost.

He has had to pay for transportation of the cars, storage of the cars, and insurance. When he sold cars, hopefully his revenue generated a net profit against his investment and his continuing costs.

In some cases, things did not go as planned. An example would be the derailment of one or more cars moving in a CSX freight train; I recall there was some question of whether or not the cars were placed in the train's consist where the transportations instructions said they had to be placed. Another example would by the cars abandoned/marooned and cutup for scrap at White Plains MD, the interchange between NS (or is it CSX?) and the former US Navy railroad serving the Navy's Indian Head MD facility, where the individual operated a dinner train for a period of time.

jayrmli
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Re: LIRR P72 coaches... where'd they go?

Post by jayrmli » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:39 pm

The entrepreneur Jack mentioned actually received all of the cars. Interesting story how it happened...

LIRR placed an ad in Trains magazine advertising the cars for sale. A bid package was sent to prospective buyers. The entrepreneur operated a dinner train in Pennsylvania at the time and was planning to open a second in Maryland. So, he bid for 30 of the approximately 180 cars available. He was contacted by the railroad and told he would win his bid for the price mentioned, but he would have to take all of the cars, not just 30.

As many may recall, there were serious problems with receipt of the new fleet and the old fleet wound up staying around longer than expected. As a result, this entrepreneur also wound up leasing the cars back to the LIRR before they were finally retired. Many were sold and shipped to tourist railroads all over the country as they were subsequently retired, the rest winding up on siding in Pennsylvania and Maryland.

Not all was great for the entrepreneur, so let's not say he hit gold. In some cases, he may have made a few bucks on the cars. On others, he lost his shirt.

Jay
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workextra
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Re: LIRR P72 coaches... where'd they go?

Post by workextra » Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:46 pm

Jay, that's an interesting story. I remember reading about the part where the cars were leased back to the LIRR for a cost but not that they made a deal for him to take all the cars and the dinner train.
Leads me to ask why didn't he offer to keep some Parlors and Bars on Long Island for the summer/special service and make a operating deal with the LIRR to run it?

All these years later, Did this guy wind up making money or loosing money on the cars?
Was the 180 number the total number of Pullmans remaining in the later '90s after they off loaded cars upon completion of the Main Line electrification in the late '80s?

I know CSX is a for profit Class 1 railroad but why ship these cars or that many mixed into a revenue through freight? Running them as a passenger train with passenger air pressure and a speed restriction if need be may have prevented the derailment?

jayrmli
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Re: LIRR P72 coaches... where'd they go?

Post by jayrmli » Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:09 pm

I doubt LIRR would have wanted to keep any of the cars anyway, so that issue is moot. The parlors that the LIRR had at the time were some of the most sought after cars in the fleet and were sold outright as they left the LIRR, except for a couple which the guy was going to keep for his own operation.

The interesting part is the dinner train he was going to start in Maryland never did materialize. I'm not sure in the end if he made a decent profit on the whole venture...I'm not privy to his company's finances.

Yes, the fleet of 180 coaches was the remaining fleet after Main Line electrification, except for two cars converted for sandite. Six cars out of the 180 total never left the Island. Two went to RMLI in Riverhead, two went to the Oyster Bay Railroad Museum, One for the Transit Museum and one privately owned car.

The problem with moving the cars off island like you suggested is they were never shipped out in one batch. Many were shipped directly to those that had purchased them, and the remainder went to the guy in Pennsylvania, and either went there or White Plains, MD. The biggest problem (and what caused some of the derailments) is that most employees on freight railroads today have never handled passenger cars and might not have been aware of the restrictions that were on the bills of lading. Passenger cars can't be coupled to cars equipped with double shelf couplers (the kind of couplers on cars like tank cars), can't ne humped and must be the rear cars on the train. I know several were damaged in a switching accident, and others were placed in the middle of a freight consist, causing the derailment. All of the coaches' brakes were converted to direct exhaust when they left LIRR, so their brakes would operate like a freight train.

Jay
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workextra
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Re: LIRR P72 coaches... where'd they go?

Post by workextra » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:23 pm

Jay, Thanks again for coming through with good information.

Out off all the cars some had to be in much better shape then others and those that were in bad shape, Do you know if they were cut up for parts to keep the operational cars in good order?

jayrmli
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Re: LIRR P72 coaches... where'd they go?

Post by jayrmli » Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:50 am

I'm sure those that bought a fleet of cars wound up using one car as a parts donor for the others.

The cars that were probably in the best shape were the parlors and bar cars, since they weren't used as frequently, especially during the winter months which can be harsh on passenger cars. The last couple of years when the railroad knew they were going to be retired, rock salt was used to get rid of ice in the vestibules and that plus road grime that would kick up over the grade crossings caused a lot of deterioration in those areas. The floors are a particular problem, and the way those cars were constructed make it hard to just "patch" the floor.

Jay
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RGlueck
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Re: LIRR P72 coaches... where'd they go?

Post by RGlueck » Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:57 pm

Interesting that so many remain available for service. These were nice coaches, and it would be great to see a few more returned to service in LIRR colors.
Kind of a shame that the P54's and MP54's didn't survive as well once service was ended.

keyboardkat
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Re: LIRR P72 coaches... where'd they go?

Post by keyboardkat » Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:05 pm

They were nice coaches when they were new. I remember them when they were new. It's too bad the railroad didn't maintain them properly, especially in the later years, when the state government owned the railroad and the knowledgeable ex-PRR employees were mostly gone. That horrible MTA blue-and-platinum paint job, which showed dirt quickly and began to peel right away because of lack of priming? Ugh.
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workextra
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Re: LIRR P72 coaches... where'd they go?

Post by workextra » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:32 pm

I know the cars are old and toward their end they were not properly maintained contributing to them really becoming scrap metal, However with the right creative minds in the right places and yes state funding. The LIRR could have capitalized on their very unique east end.
Again I'm not saying they should have kept every car. Just the Finer survivors to be restored and maintained with enough parts to keep them rolling for limited occasions and special runs.
I see things differently so please don't take it the wrong way.
In the end these veterans of commuter service showed their battle scars. filthy, and tired they lumbered on till that last train. now some have gotten a second chance at life.
After more then 10 years sitting outside with little to no maintenance nature takes it toll.
For those in the know, out of all the P72s left on Long Island what ones are in the best condition for the least expensive restoration?
And at that, what are the cost, and how could the be minimized without cutting corners?

I do have to ask, Could a restoration and operating agreement be made with the car owners, LIRR/MTA/NY State to restore them, and if so Could the agreement include provisions to allow the members of the museums to assist the railroad staff in restoration the project?
Obviously this would require waivers and other documents signed and agreed upon by all involved.
I Strongly believe a all hands on deck approach could make it happen much sooner then each going their own way and the railroad not be involved.
Together each could feed off one another to reach a common goal.
Why would such a mutually beneficial relationship be too difficult to achieve?

452 Card
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Re: LIRR P72 coaches... where'd they go?

Post by 452 Card » Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:09 pm

MTA LIRR couldn't care less about the "old fleet", especially M of E who were happy to see them go. I understand the nostalgia that surrounds these cars, but the hard facts are when the new fleet transition occurred was where to store them before they went off line. There simply is no room anywhere due to politics and NIMBYism. The same was true for the M1 cars. Where to put 120 units? I searched literally miles of sidings in places so obscure that I disappeared in brush for available storage trackage. Then, when things looked good for a storage point, politics and red tape canceled the location. Also the asbestos issue, too.
I really don't think that the LIRR will entertain any type of east end old fleet train. How to power it? Fuel it? Maintain it? Store it? These questions will certainly arise (if even the subject gets to that point). I'm not trying to be negative here, where optimism brings hope for some type of retro activity, but the current management on the LIRR does not have a whit of nostalgia for anything old, or the funding for it.
By the way, Ken also bought the entire ten car C1 fleet for $30,000. I was told when we moved them to MNCR that they were slated for a dinner train he was planning on the north end of the Waterbury Branch. Those coaches were 2 million each when new. Talk about a money pit!
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RailVet
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Re: LIRR P72 coaches... where'd they go?

Post by RailVet » Wed May 23, 2012 1:16 pm

At last report a number of these ex-LIRR cars were marooned on a formerly rock company spur in Waldorf, MD. I'm told CSX won't accept these cars in interchange, and they've been sitting there for many years. Thieves have stripped them of air conditioning units, electrical wiring, etc., so they're in pretty bad shape. One at the north end of the track has been completely gutted by fire.

The cars marooned in White Plains, MD, on the remaining stub of the what was once the Navy line west to Indian Head (pulled up in January 2008 and converted to a trail by Charles Country) were in bad shape and scrapped a few summers ago.

North of Chambersburg, PA, there were numerous cars stored on what had been Letterkenny Army Depot tracks. Reportedly the owner was behind in car storage fees so the rail operator, the Pennsylvania & Southern Railway, took the owner to court to collect and won title to the cars, which he then sold for scrap to recover back rent. Hub Scrap of Hagerstown, MD, chopped them up.

Two remain on the Walkersville Southern RR, where one is used as necessary a few times a year (Santa trains, Easter bunny trains, etc.) while the other remains stored. They were lent to the WSRR in return for track work on the Northern Central Rwy years ago; however, the NCRy is long gone and the cars remain. Given CSX's reported refusal to accept such cars in interchange, It's unlikely they'll ever leave by rail.

railwayj
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Re: LIRR P72 coaches... where'd they go?

Post by railwayj » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:54 am

litz wrote:We have 2705, 2929, and 2795 on the Blue Ridge Scenic RR.

2705 is still in its original configuration (although we removed 1/2 the seats to make more room for passengers), while 2929 and 2975 were converted to open-air coaches by removing the side windows/seats, and installing bench seats for the passengers.

- litz
Our museum here in Alabama has and runs number 2972. We just took it out of service to have structural repairs done on it but after that will be back running on our line. Ours too had half of the seats removed, but was that way when we got the car from its previous owner. The layout works well for us. We did take out an additional seat at one end and install wheelchair tiedowns for handicapped passengers.

Jeff

mikey cruz
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Re: LIRR P72 coaches... where'd they go?

Post by mikey cruz » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:22 am

Lookin through a few pics I have SGLR took #2703 & 2712, pics are a little blurry but that's what I can see. I thought there was a 3rd car but can't remember. I think those were P75's though because they had square windows in the doors.

lilbluefoxie
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Re: LIRR P72 coaches... where'd they go?

Post by lilbluefoxie » Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:37 pm

I got a couple of photos of the remaining ones that are scattered around Long Island http://jonstrainphotos.com/photos/cartype/P72

jhdeasy
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Re: LIRR P72 coaches... where'd they go?

Post by jhdeasy » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:28 pm

lilbluefoxie wrote:I got a couple of photos of the remaining ones that are scattered around Long Island http://jonstrainphotos.com/photos/cartype/P72
Take a look at photo 978 of car 2933, the one at the top left corner of the page.

The adjoining car is one of the LIRR's former B&M or Bangor and Aroostok cars. Look at the equalizer on the truck, at the bottom right of the photo. It appears to have some mechanism mounted on the equalizer. Could it be for a third rail contact shoe? However, these were locomotive hauled cars, not EMU cars. Why would it have such a mechanism mounted on the equalizer?

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