Amazon Two HQ in LIC: Impact on LIRR...

Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.

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DogBert
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Re: Amazon Two HQ in LIC: Impact on LIRR...

Post by DogBert » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:28 am

R36 Combine Coach wrote:
DogBert wrote:Anyway, LIC Coach Yard is still there, used every weekday. The old 'north shore' float yard is gone and has been for years now. Amazon is going in along the waterfront at Anable Basin. The decking over of Sunnyside is planned, but years, perhaps decades off. Of note: Amtrak is cooperating with the city EDC on the decking, while the MTA side was not in the planning study.
Given rapid growth (residential/corporate/commercial) in LIC, it might be worth adding off-peak/weekend service to LIC/HPA soon. It could be as simple as extending off peak and weekend Montauk/Oyster Bay trains from their western Jamaica terminal.

I agree. I just don't see it happening with the MTA's current penny wise/pound foolish mindset. Running trains out of LIC, down the old Rock branch and direct to JFK would be huge for NYC on a whole.

adamj023
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Re: Amazon Two HQ in LIC: Impact on LIRR...

Post by adamj023 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:40 pm

MACTRAXX wrote:Everyone:

With the half-selection of Amazon HQ2 being placed in Long Island City (the other half will be in Crystal City/Arlington,VA) how will it affect the LIRR?
Any possibility of adding a station in the vicinity as an add-on to the ESA Project?

Any thought about expanding service to and from Hunterspoint Avenue or LIC for the added workforce addition of 25,000 Amazon employees?

I do agree with the thought that the Subway routes serving the area could be overwhelmed by the added ridership...

I expect that this subject will be a major topic for some time into the future...MACTRAXX
I believe NY should never have given Amazon additional tax breaks to come here, as giving funding to Amazon hurts the competitive landscape for other companies who got no special deals.

Amazon is displacing Citigroup employees who are moving elsewhere so this project shifts around traffic.

Amazon’s center of operations will be the Court Square area down to Anable Basin. Area has closeby access to NYC Ferry, 23rd and Court Square subway lines and bus and 21st and Van Alst to a lesser extent and other subway and LIRR lines.

Vernon Blvd is likely to see a lot more traffic along with 44th drive.

I believe a new subway station by new Amazon HQ when it replaces Court Square is warrented as well as connections to the LIRR and other subway lines and perhaps a new ferry stop where Amazon is which is right next to existing ferry terminal or improved accessibility to the existing ferry terminal.

LIRR has been steadily growing in ridership and LIC could see some growth. I don’t see anything special here however.

Essentially Amazon will move further down than Court Square to the waterside. If Court square and Amazon hq are fully utilized then it would require expansion of transit to the area.

DogBert
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Re: Amazon Two HQ in LIC: Impact on LIRR...

Post by DogBert » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:56 am

All of this Amazon talk neglects the fact that LIC was already the fastest growing neighborhood in the US in terms of population. 10k+ new apartments added these last two years, with more already under construction.

This is just fuel on the fire. Anyone who thinks Queens on a whole doesn't need more transit is kidding themselves.

adamj023
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Re: Amazon Two HQ in LIC: Impact on LIRR...

Post by adamj023 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:39 am

Transit needs are growing throughout the area. LIC is just one area experiencing growth.

Hunterspoint will likely need to expand if demand requires it with larger facilities, more service and larger staircases and walkways for the subway lines.

Long Island city station seems to be further away and likely is less utilized.

The old former Montauk line had lots of unused rail overpasses which are being demolished so a lot of clean up work is ongoing. I can see LIRR adding more service and upgrading or adding additional platforms as well in the area and perhaps additional subway entrances closer to Anable basin. I do not believe LIRR will relocate their Long Island City stations or add an additional station but I do predict expansion of service over time.

As of today transit needs will be met with additional trains and service on the 7 line with new CBTC signalling which should help.

DogBert
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Re: Amazon Two HQ in LIC: Impact on LIRR...

Post by DogBert » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:55 am

Unfortunately, literally the only transit improvements Cuomo and DeBlasio talked about during the Amazon unveiling was more ferry service and flailing BQX trolley plan. BQX would serve *maybe* 20k people on a route that is largely replicated by subways and buses already. The ferry services are subsidized at an alarming rate ($6.60 per passenger according to one estimate: https://www.6sqft.com/ferries-cost-nyc- ... passenger/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Again: there are currently ZERO plans for any improvements to either LIRR stop in LIC, and ZERO improvements planned for subway service. The 7 added CBTC capacity will be eaten up by current riders. 7 trains routinely bypass stops in sunnyside now during morning rush hour because they are too crowded and behind schedule. Let's not even talk about how many will be attempting to transfer at Court Square during the L shutdown, and the thousands of new apartments being built all along the 7 year after year. CBTC will be a band-aid.

The MTA literally doesn't have to do anything. They are already a failing system losing ridership year over year (due largely to unreliably and poor 'off peak' service). So long as it remains a political football being tossed around, there will be no significant service changes. Half hour headways on buses... and yes, they'll be charging customers more per ride next year, because they can.

Cuomo said last week "There is no MTA. It’s a fiction".




Do we need way more transit in NYC on a whole? Yes. Will we get it so long as Cuomo and DeBlasio are in charge? Absolutely not. We are stuck with both for at least the next two to three years.

adamj023
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Re: Amazon Two HQ in LIC: Impact on LIRR...

Post by adamj023 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:00 pm

The L line is only a temporary shutdown. There are loads of subway lines to Manhattan which have been increased over time and more on the way such as the East side access project. CBTC and additional cars will help increase frequency and put more cars on the 7 and I guess more cars could be added on other lines where more trains can be placed from the displaced L trains as well as the new r179 cars including the additional order. Even with all the improvements, of course it would be better to have the L back but that isn’t possible till it is finished. Transit means gradual improvements where it will never fully meet the needs unless mass transit usage declines sharply.

R36 Combine Coach
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Re: Amazon Two HQ in LIC: Impact on LIRR...

Post by R36 Combine Coach » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:29 pm

The two LIRR stations are about a half mile or more from the proposed commercial sites. The IND 23 Street-Court Square Station will be hit the most by heavy loads. Ironically it was a station that almost never came to pass. Built as a shell with the IND 53 Street Line in the early 1930s, the shell (platform provisions in the tunnel) was not completed when the line opened in 1933. The NYCBOT (NYC Board of Transportation) felt that Long Island City was "too industrial" and ridership would be insufficient. After demands from local officials and community groups, the NYCBOT completed the station in 1936-38 with the construction of staircases, mezzanine levels, platform work, signage and tiling and opened in August 1939.
Since my friend continues to chain smoke nonstop, she is probably an Alco.

adamj023
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Re: Amazon Two HQ in LIC: Impact on LIRR...

Post by adamj023 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:19 pm

There will be enough trains scheduled for people to get to work on time to Amazon and the infrastructure will be able to handle it. Executives will be using commercial and private jets, helicopters and vehicles. I doubt they will use much mass transit.

Sure, mass transit is never perfect but I think it will be the same as it has always been. I don’t expect Amazon to be super disruptive to the system. Workers got through Hurricane Sandy and except for the L line and the LIRR tunnels, I believe the rest of the subway tunnels were fully rebuilt. Any De Blasio plan for light rail/trollies or whatnot is useless. I do believe the nyc ferry will also pick up additional loads and they supposedly ordered larger boats as it has become popular and the route network has expanded since it first came out. I am not forseeing any such transit emergency. Just a gradual expansion over time on an as needed basis. Quite frankly the mass transit system in NYC is super large with multiple redundencies built in as we saw during the LIRR outages due to work at Penn Station. After the L work is done and eventually East Side Access project completed, the system will be as robust as ever.

mirrodie
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Re: Amazon Two HQ in LIC: Impact on LIRR...

Post by mirrodie » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:59 pm

The amazon situation will bring jobs. A large portion of them will be high paying tech. But you dip have various lower level jobs that can be served by the LIC and surrounds.

Think building maintenance, couriers, etc. and not everyone can afford to live in NYC. I could see those old Montauk stations reopen, as employees may come from there or live there.

A,axon could revitalize the old Montauk......who knows.
All you need is faith
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DogBert
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Re: Amazon Two HQ in LIC: Impact on LIRR...

Post by DogBert » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:33 pm

Some glowing reviews of the subways here have me wondering how many of you ride it multiple times a day or even live in NYC.

Byford's CBTC plan will cost $19B. ESA is YEARS behind schedule already. The 7 CBTC took nearly 8 years to complete. 8 years of regular service disruptions (or no service at all) that have lead people to find alternates methods. Ridership is dropping due to slow service and detours. All of this is reported, factual news.

Amazon is NOT funding anything transit related. There was zero mention of the old montauk tracks in the announcement. Zero. Until we get ride of DeBlasio and Cuomo, nothing will change. Neither of them take the subway. Neither of them care what average new yorkers go through every day just trying to get around town.

Meanwhile, month by month, year by year, more and more small one family houses are replaced by large apartment buildings. Service increases lagged behind, and now we're at a point where you've got trains like the N, W, & E that are at crush load capacity with no possibility of adding more anytime soon. CBTC on Queens blvd won't be complete anytime soon, and if it's anything like the 7, it'll run years behind schedule. With or without Amazon, the system cannot handle the current demand, and will not be able to in the future - not without significant added commuting time. Everyone I know who takes the subway allows themselves 20-30 more minutes per ride than they used to. Employers used to expect you to be in the office at a set time... That expectation has disappeared in recent years, because there are constant subway delays.

Amazon is just throwing a fuel can into a fire that no one has the political will to stop.

Want more jobs here? Great. Who doesn't? But maybe invest in a little infrastructure to go with it, so we're not all fighting each other to get onto a train like we're in a third world country.

adamj023
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Re: Amazon Two HQ in LIC: Impact on LIRR...

Post by adamj023 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:46 pm

DogBert wrote:Some glowing reviews of the subways here have me wondering how many of you ride it multiple times a day or even live in NYC.

Byford's CBTC plan will cost $19B. ESA is YEARS behind schedule already. The 7 CBTC took nearly 8 years to complete. 8 years of regular service disruptions (or no service at all) that have lead people to find alternates methods. Ridership is dropping due to slow service and detours. All of this is reported, factual news.

Amazon is NOT funding anything transit related. There was zero mention of the old montauk tracks in the announcement. Zero. Until we get ride of DeBlasio and Cuomo, nothing will change. Neither of them take the subway. Neither of them care what average new yorkers go through every day just trying to get around town.

Meanwhile, month by month, year by year, more and more small one family houses are replaced by large apartment buildings. Service increases lagged behind, and now we're at a point where you've got trains like the N, W, & E that are at crush load capacity with no possibility of adding more anytime soon. CBTC on Queens blvd won't be complete anytime soon, and if it's anything like the 7, it'll run years behind schedule. With or without Amazon, the system cannot handle the current demand, and will not be able to in the future - not without significant added commuting time. Everyone I know who takes the subway allows themselves 20-30 more minutes per ride than they used to. Employers used to expect you to be in the office at a set time... That expectation has disappeared in recent years, because there are constant subway delays.

Amazon is just throwing a fuel can into a fire that no one has the political will to stop.

Want more jobs here? Great. Who doesn't? But maybe invest in a little infrastructure to go with it, so we're not all fighting each other to get onto a train like we're in a third world country.
I never said mass transit here is great. I was saying there will be ways to use mass transit to get around if you take into account delays and MTA does make constant improvements over time.

MTA has lots of projects ongoing to future proof the system but the system is struggling now while work is underway.

At the beginning, Amazon won’t mean much impact for transit riders. If Amazon substantially grows and if another leaseholder takes over from Amazon’s temporary HQ space, then obviously more mass transit would be needed to accomodate the additional use from Amazon, But it will be spread over multiple different ways.

Amazon will not be as detrimental to mass transit as people think. Amazon is getting a lot of media attention but in reality won’t affect commutes that much for existing mass transit users.

More trains, automated signaling, additional stations and trackage, and larger and more ferry boats and terminals will happen over time including road expansion projects, additional bridge spans, and the like. In NYC proper it is hard to squeeze more vehicle traffic in as times are getting much worse with more ride sharing vehicles on the roads so utilizing mass transit more effectively becomes important.

R36 Combine Coach
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Re: Amazon Two HQ in LIC: Impact on LIRR...

Post by R36 Combine Coach » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:23 pm

DogBert wrote:Meanwhile, month by month, year by year, more and more small one family houses are replaced by large apartment buildings. Service increases lagged behind, and now we're at a point where you've got trains like the N, W, & E that are at crush load capacity with no possibility of adding more anytime soon.

Everyone I know who takes the subway allows themselves 20-30 more minutes per ride than they used to. Employers used to expect you to be in the office at a set time... That expectation has disappeared in recent years, because there are constant subway delays.
Sadly, the same conditions on the subway as in 1965. (See Caro, The Power Broker, p. 931)
Since my friend continues to chain smoke nonstop, she is probably an Alco.

rr503
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Re: Amazon Two HQ in LIC: Impact on LIRR...

Post by rr503 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:49 am

DogBert wrote:Some glowing reviews of the subways here have me wondering how many of you ride it multiple times a day or even live in NYC.

Byford's CBTC plan will cost $19B. ESA is YEARS behind schedule already. The 7 CBTC took nearly 8 years to complete. 8 years of regular service disruptions (or no service at all) that have lead people to find alternates methods. Ridership is dropping due to slow service and detours. All of this is reported, factual news.

Amazon is NOT funding anything transit related. There was zero mention of the old montauk tracks in the announcement. Zero. Until we get ride of DeBlasio and Cuomo, nothing will change. Neither of them take the subway. Neither of them care what average new yorkers go through every day just trying to get around town.

Meanwhile, month by month, year by year, more and more small one family houses are replaced by large apartment buildings. Service increases lagged behind, and now we're at a point where you've got trains like the N, W, & E that are at crush load capacity with no possibility of adding more anytime soon. CBTC on Queens blvd won't be complete anytime soon, and if it's anything like the 7, it'll run years behind schedule. With or without Amazon, the system cannot handle the current demand, and will not be able to in the future - not without significant added commuting time. Everyone I know who takes the subway allows themselves 20-30 more minutes per ride than they used to. Employers used to expect you to be in the office at a set time... That expectation has disappeared in recent years, because there are constant subway delays.

Amazon is just throwing a fuel can into a fire that no one has the political will to stop.

Want more jobs here? Great. Who doesn't? But maybe invest in a little infrastructure to go with it, so we're not all fighting each other to get onto a train like we're in a third world country.
This is the thing, though: compared to, say, the '70s, the subway has significantly lower peak hour ridership (down about 22%). Ridership in general is up, but that's an off-peak driven phenomenon. What's really going on here is that we are completely unable to use capacity wisely. The four Queens-Manhattan tunnels run a total of about 90 trains per hour. If they were all running 30 (which, it must be noted, you do not need CBTC to do), you'd have 120. I think that speaks not to a need so much for investment, but merely a competent operations staff backed up with an adequately sized and well-managed operations budget.

dowlingm
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Re: Amazon Two HQ in LIC: Impact on LIRR...

Post by dowlingm » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:55 am

The problem for Andy's CBTC plan is how to ensure mistakes made in Toronto aren't replicated in NYC...
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/ ... -deadline/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

R36 Combine Coach
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Re: Amazon Two HQ in LIC: Impact on LIRR...

Post by R36 Combine Coach » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:58 am

Well, it's all over. No off-peak service to HPA or LIC for another 50 or 100 years or any more LIC area investments for now.
Since my friend continues to chain smoke nonstop, she is probably an Alco.

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