M9 and M9A Procurement & Acceptance

Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.

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Tommy Meehan
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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by Tommy Meehan » Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:46 pm

lirr42 wrote:I think this is more of the reason behind the M9 and M9A fiasco, except I think it was the other way around. The M9 cars are the general cars for LIRR and MNCR if they so desired. The committee notes specifically said that this base order of 92 M9's would be paid through the MTA's 2009-2014 capital program. I think the M9A cars are the ESA spending cars.
Yes I think you're right. Sorry about that. The M9A cars are for the ESA service and paid for with Federal funds (or will be). Below I scanned one of the documents from two years ago.

Image

Is there a fiasco?

Won't the MNR cars ultimately have to have a separate designation? Maybe M9B? Guess we'll find out. :-)

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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by lirr42 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:19 pm

Ok, so after looking at all of the press releases, posts here, et al., this is how I think how this is going to play out:

The M9 order will be one order for BOTH the Long Island Rail Road and Metro-North. It will be the same exact car. Same seating configurations, same door closing alarms, same HVAC vent location thing. The same third rail shoe (they'll have the double-sided third rail shoe that is seen on some of the M8's) so there will be no technical differences. My guess is that they'll also have both cab signaling systems installed (maybe with a slide out cover over where the aspects go so they can just change what the lights mean and not have to have too many aspects). Other than that the only real difference between the M9's for the LIRR and MNCR will be who's name is stenciled on the side and what color they paint the front. The base order of 92 M9's for the LIRR will be funded through the MTA's 2009-2014 Capital Plan. Funding for future LIRR and MNCR option cars will come through later capital plans.

Now the M9A order will be further down the line. This order will be for more cars for the LIRR only. These cars will be visually similar and interoperable with the M9 cars, but might be slightly different technically. The M9A contract may go to Kawasaki, but it doesn't necessarily have to (any qualified builder can get it). Funding for the M9A Cars will likely, as Mr. Meehan said, come from sources other than the MTA's Capital Program. They'll be directly paid for by federal funds in conjunction with the East Side Access Project. Furthermore, Mr. Tool said on page one of this thread that "The cars ordered for East Side Access will differ from the LIRR cars in several ways. There is still consideration being given to forming a new operating authority to run trains into and out of Grand Central. Similar to the NYAR agreement, a non-union entity would be formed to operate over LIRR tracks." so this might tie into that in some sense. He also mentioned something in that very post about maybe the LIRR trying something out with 'belt-pack'-technology, so maybe the M9A's will that have that added feature to some extent to.

That's my understanding of the situation surrounding this. Let me know what you think.

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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by Tommy Meehan » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:54 pm

Image
How about trailers. Has anyone heard anything about them?

When the M8s were in the design stage they were talking about ordering some trailers, blind trailers I think.

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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by truck6018 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:14 pm

lirr42 wrote:Ok, so after looking at all of the press releases, posts here, et al., this is how I think how this is going to play out:

The M9 order will be one order for BOTH the Long Island Rail Road and Metro-North.
It will be one contract for LIRR and MNR but MNR is an option after the original order. Thy are not bound to exercise the option.

As far as the press release at first glance I thought the same thing but after rereading it it's stated as a future option.

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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by lirr42 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:48 pm

Tommy Meehan wrote:
Image
How about trailers. Has anyone heard anything about them?

When the M8s were in the design stage they were talking about ordering some trailers, blind trailers I think.
I think trailers for the M8's are still on the table if ConnDOT desires. I think the plan there is to get an unpowered M8 with no cabs and I think no toilet. They would be sandwiched in between two powered and cabbed M8's, forming an M8 'triplet' of sorts. I think the same thing is still an option for the M9 order, but that will also come further down the line if it comes at all.

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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by DutchRailnut » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:33 am

The 25 single car's ordered in the M-8 order will NOT be spliced in a pair and form triplets.
The cars will couple between two pair of M-8's and form a 5 car set.
and correct those cars have no cabs, no propulsion, no dynamic brake, no toilet, just seats HVAC and lights
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by Thomas » Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:21 am

What is 'belt-pack' technology?

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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by Tommy Meehan » Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:31 am

DutchRailnut wrote:The 25 single car's ordered in the M-8 order will NOT be spliced in a pair and form triplets.
The cars will couple between two pair of M-8's and form a 5 car set. and correct those cars have no cabs, no propulsion, no dynamic brake, no toilet, just seats HVAC and lights
Does anyone know the difference in price between a regular powered M-8 and a blind M-8 trailer?

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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by DutchRailnut » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:33 pm

very very little, we all wonder why they did not just buy 13 more pair.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by Steamboat Willie » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:26 pm

Thomas wrote:What is 'belt-pack' technology?
It will give the ability to make moves within the yard or mechanical tracks without the need of an engineer. Belt pack technology or better known as Remote Control Operator (RCO) eliminates the need for an employee at the controls of the locomotive (read: reduce crew sizes.) It's the next can of worms to be opened. There was a great discussion a few months ago but was removed, one of the members whom worked for several roads chimed in and discussed in detail the nature of RCO.

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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by Tommy Meehan » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:56 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:very very little, we all wonder why they did not just buy 13 more pair.
They don't have to do as frequent inspections? No motors and controls to maintain? I dunno.

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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by DutchRailnut » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:01 pm

Actually the 25 cars will have to go over a pit once a week for (disk) brake inspections.
FRA does not accept inspections in yard for this, so in long run it will cost a lot in switching cost and flexibility.

on a car with dynamic(blended) brake the disk brakes are good for 92 days as a minimum
Last edited by DutchRailnut on Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by MattAmity90 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:32 pm

I like that sketch design. Same look as the M7 cars except they lowered the headlights, but I love the LED destination signs above the engineers vestibules.
This station is Babylon, this is the train to Penn Station. Stopping at: Lindenhurst, Copiague, Amityville, Massapequa Park, Massapequa, Seaford, Wantagh, Bellmore, Merrick, Freeport, Baldwin, Rockville Centre, Lynbrook, Valley Stream, Jamaica, Kew Gardens, Forest Hills, Woodside, Penn Station.

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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by hrfcarl » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:48 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:The 25 single car's ordered in the M-8 order will NOT be spliced in a pair and form triplets.
The cars will couple between two pair of M-8's and form a 5 car set.
and correct those cars have no cabs, no propulsion, no dynamic brake, no toilet, just seats HVAC and lights
Will these middle cars be draw bar connected? If yes, will these middle cars have 3rd rail shoes to power the HVAC & lights and supply the powered cars?

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Re: LIRR M9 Procurement Information

Post by DutchRailnut » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:50 pm

No they are coupled between two pair as in A car- B car -single car - A car - B car so they need Automatic couplers.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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